Discussion:
Cuba's AIDS Sanatoria: Care and Prevention, Not Repression
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N***@blythe.org
2007-06-01 03:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Cuba's AIDS Sanatoria: Care and Prevention, Not Repression

Via NY Transfer News Collective * All the News that Doesn't Fit

Workers World - May 26, 2007
http://www.workers.org/2007/world/lavender-red-99/

Lavender & Red, part 99

AIDS quarantine in Cuba:

Care & prevention, not repression

By Leslie Feinberg

>From both a scientific and human standpoint, the AIDS sanatoria health
care facilities in Cuba bore no relation to the threat of state
quarantine in the U.S.

In the U.S., there was no scientific merit to public proposals to
empower the state for surveillance and quarantine of people believed to
have AIDS. There was no way to identify how many people out of the vast
population had already been exposed. The epidemic was already
entrenched. AIDS was not spread through casual contact. And anti-gay
and racist scapegoating, laws against same-sex love, immigrant bashing,
and laws against IV drug use and prostitution had generated fear of the
state, as well as of coming forward for testing or treatment.

So threats of state investigation and forced isolation only drove the
epidemic deeper underground. The prohibitive costs of medical care,
particularly for those without health insurance, also barred many from
seeking health care.

Yet on March 2, 1984, USA Today revealed that California officials were
legally pursuing the ability to forcibly quarantine people believed to
have AIDS. The same month, the Democratic co-chair of the Connecticut
General Assembly’s Judiciary Committee introduced broad quarantine
legislation after a racist media campaign demonized a Black woman,
accused of prostitution and drug addiction, who was reported to have
AIDS.

Even as politicians were refusing to allocate the funds necessary to
meet this public health emergency, the big-business media were unjustly
accusing Haitian immigrants in the U.S. of spreading AIDS.

The late Michael Callen told Workers World at that time that the press
for quarantine powers was “not really to protect people but to further
certain political goals, to further isolate already disenfranchised
people.” Callen said that the singling out of a Black woman in
Connecticut and allegations without scientific basis that Haiti and
Africa were the sources of the epidemic were attempts “to blame all
calamity on the Third World.” (Workers World, April 5, 1984)

Gay men and bisexuals were blamed for the epidemic for much the same
reason that the church hierarchy in the Middle Ages accused Jewish
people of creating bubonic plague by “poisoning the wells.”

Media in the South and Jerry Falwell’s right-wing fundamentalist
publication “Moral Majority Inc.” editorialized that AIDS was God’s
“deserved punishments” against homosexuals. (aidssurvivalproject.org)

Far-right columnist Patrick Buchanan titled his commentary: “AIDS
Disease: It’s Nature Striking Back.” (New York Post, May 24, 1983)

That’s why the late Bobby Campbell, a San Francisco registered nurse
with AIDS, told Workers World on March 25, 1984, how concerned he was
about the political abuses of broad quarantine measures in the U.S. He
warned, “We would see gay men locked up en masse and it is possible in
more backward localities that lesbians could be included in that.”

The U.S. government declared war on people with AIDS rather than
marshal funds and forces to deal with the epidemic. Science, not
scapegoating

By contrast, Cuba—an island nation of 11 million that was blockaded by
U.S. imperialism—had prepared its health care system for the epidemic
two years before its first diagnosis of an AIDS case. So when AIDS
first emerged in the population, it could be easily identified and
isolated before being spread to the rest of the people.

In 1986, Cuba opened up 13 sanatoria that provided care for 99 people,
only 20 percent of whom were believed to have contracted AIDS through
same-sex contact. (Denver Post, Feb. 10, 2003)

Joseph Mutti wrote from Havana in June 1999, “Once a person has tested
HIV-positive, attempts are made to trace everyone who had sexual
contact with the person. Given Cubans’ general openness about their
sexuality, and Cuba’s cradle-to-grave health care system, it’s usually
possible to ascertain how and when a person was infected.

“The basic principle of the Cuban public health-care system, widely
recognized as the Third World’s best,” Mutti explained, “is to
prioritize the health of the population as a whole instead of focusing
exclusively on individual care. This is important for understanding
HIV/AIDS policies, including the sanatorium system that earned Cuba an
unfair reputation for employing repression to counter the
virus.” (“Love and Honesty: The Dawn of Gay Rights,” Resource Center of
the Americas.org)

The newspaper Granma explained Cuba’s reasons for using quarantine:
“The main usefulness of this measure is to slow down as much as
possible the epidemic progression of the disease to allow time for
other measures of disease control to have a medium- or long-term
effect, such as education (encouraging changes in sexual habits and
behavior), until such time as a vaccine and treatment exist, auguring a
definitive solution to the problem.” (“Cuban Strategy in the Struggle
Against AIDS,” Granma, Sept. 18, 1988)

When asked about the Cuban approach to AIDS, then-Cuban Deputy Public
Health Minister Hector Terry explained in October 1987, “The quarantine
center is a sanatorium. We have a very small number of people carrying
the virus, and we believe that because of that, we are in a unique
situation. We have an opportunity, in epidemiological terms, of
controlling the spread of AIDS and preventing it from becoming a major
epidemic as it has in other countries, where they don’t know how to
confront, reduce or eliminate it.

“We are in a situation that permits us to make this kind of decision,
and to wait a while because we are not talking about something
permanent, for a whole lifetime. We’re talking about a dialectical
situation.”

Terry added, “This aspect [quarantine] is controversial, some groups of
scientists disagree with it.” He said that the objections were “more
from a political than a scientific standpoint. But we believe our
country has this epidemiological opportunity and we shouldn’t lose it.
We are trying to prevent the spread of the virus throughout the country
by means of sexual relations that our patients could have with other
people who at this point have not been infected with the virus.”

“Our country has its own philosophy and the first principle of this
philosophy is respect for human dignity. I think that human dignity
requires care of the individual. You know that we spare no resources
here to make sure that our people have the best health care possible
anywhere in the world. And that’s part of what we’re trying to maintain
in our battle against AIDS.” (Interview with Karen Wald, Guardian, Oct.
28, 1987) The best care—for free

Cuba provided free health care to its population despite economic
obstruction by the U.S. and later the devastating loss of its main
trading partner, the Soviet Union. Cuba organized its scarce
resources—not just to stem transmission of the epidemic, but to provide
humane care.

“Organized like small communities,” MEDICC Review wrote, “the
sanatoriums are made up of apartment complexes and small houses, plus
infirmary, offices and other patient facilities.” (Vol. II, No. 1, 2;
2001)

People with AIDS received healthy food, medications and other
treatment, air-conditioned housing, exercise and sports, movies,
television, videos, rest, and psychological and social services;
everything was free except cigarettes.

Cubans with AIDS continued to receive their full paychecks, even if
they weren’t able to work. Their jobs were held open indefinitely.
Terry stressed, “This is very important, so that they have no concern
regarding the support of their families.

“What other country in the world would be capable of paying full salary
to people with AIDS? Terry asked. “I think that’s very linked to the
whole question of human rights and the controversies around this. We
know there are countries that shout about human rights, such as the
U.S. where a person who gets AIDS may die of hunger, lose his job, it’s
hard to get into a hospital. Treatment there costs an average of $700 a
day.”

Terry added that the Cubans’ families also received special attention.
A working group of psychologists, sociologists and social workers
helped the families of people with AIDS deal with their problems, as
well. Terry concluded that people with AIDS had greater peace of mind
knowing their families were being cared for.

Next: Cuba declared war on AIDS, not on people with AIDS

Articles copyright 1995-2007 Workers World. Verbatim copying and
distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium without
royalty provided this notice is preserved.

Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY, NY 10011
Email: ***@workers.org
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PL
2007-06-01 08:31:49 UTC
Permalink
Recent news articles:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php

Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+%22sida%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?


Before MSF Cuba used "quarantine" as "solution".
MSF stepped in setting up prevention programs, bringing in condoms and
improving care.
But as comrade Dan wants to hide both the inhumanity and inefficiency of the
Cuban system the only option he has is to attack the record of MSF.
You are a lying hypocrite comrade Dan.


The facts:
- the uphill struggle of MSF against the system:


"Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress."
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html


"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html

- where it all started:


"Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year."
Cuba: MSF closes its missions on the islandIn late 1999, Médecins Sans
Frontières made the difficult decision to discontinue its work in Cuba. Some
MSF programs in Cuba were successfully completed and handed over to the the
Ministry of Health. But excessive administrative control by Cuban
authorities and related problems with local supply channels made it
difficult for the organization to continue running other projects
independently and effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw. MSF
closed its last mission in Cuba in April 2000.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html

A candid interview with some doctors involved :

Physicians without Frontiers

Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.
http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echo
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html


- what Cuba's "solution" was before: lies and abuse.


MSF stepped in after years of underreporting AIDS in Cuba :


"Controlling AIDS in Cuba"
New England Journal of Medicine (09/21/89) Vol. 321, No. 12, P.
Gordon, Antonio M.



"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
See :


DOCTORS: Cuba may have serious AIDS problem
Miami Herald - FRI December 18 1987
http://ww2.aegis.org/news/mh/1987/MH871201.html


"The AIDS Conference: Critics Say Cuba Hiding HIV Epidemic"
San Francisco Sunday Examiner and Chronicle (06/24/90), P. D14
Krieger, Lisa M.


And after a policy of isolating AIDS sufferers in sometimes horrendous
circumstances :

Cuba's AIDS Quarantine Center Called 'Frightening'
Los Angeles Times - FRIDAY November 4, 1988
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1988/LT881104.html

Cuba AIDS 'Solution' Lock 'Em Up
Miami Herald; Sunday, November 10, 1991
Elinor Burkett, Herald Staff Writer
http://ww2.aegis.org/news/mh/1991/MH911107.html


New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
(this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report)
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html


The isolation practice wasn't working anyway.
"Number of AIDS Carriers Grows in Cuba"
Reuter (06/01/89)



"Cuba's Push to Isolate AIDS"
Washington Post (02/14/89), P. 6
Preston, Julie



"Cuba's Quarantine for AIDS"
New York Times (02/06/89), P. A14

(some links may be inactive as they data back several years. For more info
search soc.culture.cuba)
Dan Christensen
2007-06-02 17:39:52 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
>
> Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
>
> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>

[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

This (and the rest of your ridiculous posting) has been repeatedly
debunked here. Most recently, see the thread, "Medical school is
propaganda tool."

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 08:10:37 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
>>
>> Over 350 articles on aids in
>> Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
>>
>> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
>> whole
>> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>>
>
> [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>
> This (and the rest of your ridiculous posting) has been repeatedly
> debunked here.
(snip)

Never debunked comrade Dan.
Just snipped as usual.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-02 17:58:24 UTC
Permalink
correction

On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
>
> Over 350 articles on aids in Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
>
> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the whole
> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>
[snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
"Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)


Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp
2007-06-02 20:12:56 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> correction
>
> On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
>>
>> Over 350 articles on aids in
>> Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
>>
>> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
>> whole
>> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>>
> [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>
> Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
> thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
> make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
> program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
> that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
> monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
> "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)


Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-03 06:25:54 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:cbk8i.348$***@trnddc03...
>
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:***@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> > correction
> >
> > On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
> >>
> >> Over 350 articles on aids in
> >> Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
> >>
> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
> >> whole
> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
> >>
> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
> >
> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>
>
> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS problem
> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)


And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?

And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
krp
2007-06-03 14:48:38 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:S9t8i.8298$***@trnddc08...

>> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
>> >> whole
>> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>> >>
>> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>> >
>> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
>> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
>> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
>> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
>> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
>> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
>> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>>
>>
>> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
>> problem
>> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
>> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)

> And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?

> And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?

I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
infected further underground and the infection rate exploded. But not much
is said at all about the quarantine.
Dan Christensen
2007-06-04 03:49:52 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 3, 10:48 am, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in messagenews:S9t8i.8298$***@trnddc08...
>
>
>
>
>
> >> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
> >> >> whole
> >> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>
> >> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>
> >> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
> >> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
> >> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
> >> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
> >> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
> >> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
> >> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>
> >> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
> >> problem
> >> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with HIV
> >> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
> > And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
> > And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
>
> I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was brought
> on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
> the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive those
> infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.

Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
"exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
lowest in the world -- approx. one sixth that of the USA according to
the latest UNAIDS stats.
http://www.unaids.org/en/HIV_data/2006GlobalReport/default.asp

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
krp
2007-06-04 14:57:11 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

>> >> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
>> >> >> the whole
>> >> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?

>> >> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

>> >> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
>> >> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
>> >> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
>> >> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
>> >> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
>> >> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
>> >> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)

>> >> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
>> >> problem
>> >> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with
>> >> HIV
>> >> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
>> > And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
>> > And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?

>> I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was
>> brought
>> on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
>> the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive
>> those
>> infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.

> Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
> "exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
> lowest in the world -- approx. one sixth that of the USA according to
> the latest UNAIDS stats.

It was exploding when the quarantine was in effect Dannykins. Because it
made infected people hide, when Cuba adopted a much more enlightened program
and stopped repression of homosexuals (well almost) the infection rates
started to drop dramatically and Cuba now has one of the more effective HIV
programs in the world.
PL
2007-06-05 08:15:20 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 3, 10:48 am, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> messagenews:S9t8i.8298$***@trnddc08...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> whole
>> >> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>>
>> >> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>>
>> >> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
>> >> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
>> >> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
>> >> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
>> >> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
>> >> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
>> >> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>>
>> >> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
>> >> problem
>> >> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with
>> >> HIV
>> >> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
>> > And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
>> > And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
>>
>> I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was
>> brought
>> on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
>> the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive
>> those
>> infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
>
> Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
> "exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
> lowest in the world
(snip)

and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?

"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "

after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
didn't have some headway could be made.

New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
[this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report]
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html

Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
sick.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-05 08:57:17 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...

> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
> sick.


You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)

Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
except the US? And it IS help, you know.... it's not like they couldn't
kick them out or not allow them in to begin with. People generally like
Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you and the other US
dis-information agencies that put on the front of Cuba's "communist"
aggression and dictatorial suffering.
PL
2007-06-05 09:33:41 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:Nz99i.16221$***@trnddc04...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>
>> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
>> sick.
>
>
> You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
>
> Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
> except the US?

the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
people at least twice in the past.

Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
World: Americas
Cuba to reject US aid
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm

Source: Reuters Foundation
Date: 01 Oct 1998
U.S. disappointed Cuba rejects drought aid
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/OCHA-64CJVT?OpenDocument

"Hurricane Dennis caused about $1.4 billion in damage and killed 16 people
in Cuba, but the government there will refuse any aid from Washington or
Europe, Fidel Castro has announced."
See:
Castro rebuffs aid despite rising death toll, damage
Cuba's damages and deaths from Hurricane Dennis keep rising -- and so does
its government's resolve not to accept any help from Washington.
BY FRANCES ROBLES
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16726

This while even today 773,000 people in Cuba need food aid from the WFP
see: www.wfp.org

> And it IS help, you know.... it's not like they couldn't
> kick them out or not allow them in to begin with.

Cuba has a habit of "kicking out" people that helped it when the help
becomes "counterproductive" in propaganda terms.
MSF set up the anti Aids program in Cub and eventually was pushed out by
"administrative pestering":

"Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy and
inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress."
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html

"But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
organization to continue running other projects independently and
effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&method=full_html

> People generally like
> Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you

Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
you I care about and for Cubans.
You seem to only care about the regime.
Read up on Cuba in these human rights reports (links to over 100 of them):
http://www.cubaverdad.net/links_to_human_rights_reports.htm

> and the other US
> dis-information agencies
(snip)

Thanks for showing how "over the top" you are.
You just destroy your own credibility with that.
I don't mind.

For facts on Cuba see: www.cubaverdad.net

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-05 13:11:23 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 5, 5:33 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in messagenews:Nz99i.16221$***@trnddc04...
>
>
>
> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>
> >> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for the
> >> sick.
>
> > You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
>
> > Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
> > except the US?
>
> the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people help.
> As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
> people at least twice in the past.
>
> Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
> World: Americas
> Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
>
[snip]

>From this article:

"'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable when there is an economic,
trade and financial blockade against Cuba for the past 40 years,' said
Mr Gonzalez [a foreign ministry spokesman'."'

Which reminds me, we are STILL waiting for your comments on Amnesty
International's recent condemnation of your beloved embargo on
humanitarian grounds. (See "One simple question for PL on his beloved
embargo -- Week 6.")


> "But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
> problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
> organization to continue running other projects independently and
> effectively, prompting the decision to withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>

The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient. And this is
just what Cuba did. They took over the MSF outreach program and
quickly went on to set up their own world-renowned AIDS monitoring and
treatment programs.


> > People generally like
> > Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
>
> Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but unlike
> you I care about and for Cubans.

You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them! What a hypocrite!
(See featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?" at my
website.)

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 15:15:32 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 5:33 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> messagenews:Nz99i.16221$***@trnddc04...
>>
>>
>>
>> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>>
>> >> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for
>> >> the
>> >> sick.
>>
>> > You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
>>
>> > Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
>> > except the US?
>>
>> the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people
>> help.
>> As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
>> people at least twice in the past.
>>
>> Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
>> World: Americas
>> Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
>>
> [snip]
>
>>From this article:
>
> "'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
> humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
(snip)

what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.

>> "But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
>> problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
>> organization to continue running other projects independently and
>> effectively, prompting the decision to
>> withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>>
>
> The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
> dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
(snip)

and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.
But thanks for confirming they set up Cuba's system.

>> > People generally like
>> > Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
>>
>> Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but
>> unlike
>> you I care about and for Cubans.
>
> You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
> promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
(snip)

There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
organization referring to them as such.
Castro on the other hand is firmly on Genocide Watch's list:
See links and data at: http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm

The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people depend
for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
partner.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 03:34:02 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 5, 11:15 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:***@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 5, 5:33 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
> >> messagenews:Nz99i.16221$***@trnddc04...
>
> >> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>
> >> >> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for
> >> >> the
> >> >> sick.
>
> >> > You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
>
> >> > Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
> >> > except the US?
>
> >> the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people
> >> help.
> >> As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
> >> people at least twice in the past.
>
> >> Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
> >> World: Americas
> >> Cuba to reject US aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
>
> > [snip]
>
> >>From this article:
>
> > "'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
> > humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
>
> (snip)
>
> what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
> hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.
>

Remember, we are STILL waiting for your proof that sufficient aid was
not obtained from other sources.


> >> "But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and related
> >> problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
> >> organization to continue running other projects independently and
> >> effectively, prompting the decision to
> >> withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>
> > The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
> > dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
>
> (snip)
>
> and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.


MSF did NOT set up Cuba's AIDS monitoring and treatment systems. All
they did was to setup up an outreach program to distrubute information
and free condoms. Quit pretending that they did any more than that.


> >> > People generally like
> >> > Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
>
> >> Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but
> >> unlike
> >> you I care about and for Cubans.
>
> > You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
> > promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
>
> (snip)
>
> There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
> The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
> lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
> organization referring to them as such.

The facts have been documented by groups like Amnesty Interantional,
Human Rights Watch and even the Catholic church. And while you may
take comfort in the fact that you and your man, Dubya, have yet to be
arrested for these crimes, under Article 2c of the UN Genocide
Convention, your beloved embargo is indeed a form of genocide. (For
details, see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?"
at my website.)


> Castro on the other hand is firmly on Genocide Watch's list:


Did you forget about GW's recent climb-down in this regard, Mr.
Lobbyist? A major setback for all you embargo-Nazis, wasn't it?

Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton, pointing out
to him that no mainstream human rights group like Amnesty
International or Human Rights Watch will support the outrageous claims
at his website of some 75,000 deaths in Cuba. He could not explain
this, and simply referred me to their only source on Cuba -- a book by
US-based academic, Rudy Rummell. Apparently GW has never actually
investigated anything at all to do with Cuba! There isn't a single
article devoted to Cuba at their website -- only a large table listing
dozens of countries, perhaps for the purpose of impressing potential
donors, with a one-liner about Cuba.

Anyway, some time late in 2005, they withdrew their outrageous claim.
I won't claim responsibility, but now they wisely decline to give any
specific figure at all, their credibility on this matter in tatters.

Similarly the same year, the London-based International Centre for
Prison Studies, year also backed down on their outrageous claims about
Cuba. Now, they list the USA as having the highest incarceration rate
in the world, with Cuba a distant 8th. Must be frustrating as hell,
eh, Mr. Lobbyist?


Here is what HRW, as long ago as 1989, had to say about the
exaggerated claims of your political masters in Miami and Washington:

"...[T]he Commission's initial decision to review human rights in Cuba
was due in large part to exaggerated U.S. charges of ongoing political
executions, disappearances and torture... [T]he U.N. delegation to
Cuba found no evidence to support those allegations."
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1989/WR89/Cuba.htm

So, it would seem that the only genocide here is in fact your beloved
embargo. Makes you proud, don't it, Mr. Lobbyist -- your very own
Final Solution!


> The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people depend
> for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
> partner.
>

Already debunked here. See the current thread, "Cuba-US Trade
Increases, Despite Blockade."

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-06 09:53:57 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 11:15 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:***@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 5, 5:33 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:Nz99i.16221$***@trnddc04...
>>
>> >> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>>
>> >> >> Without MSF Cuba would have a large problem with a penal system for
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> sick.
>>
>> >> > You mean, 'penile' system don't you? ;-)
>>
>> >> > Isn't it odd how Cuba get's so much help from everyone in the world
>> >> > except the US?
>>
>> >> the US is the largest source of remittances to Cuba: people to people
>> >> help.
>> >> As far as US help to Cuba: Castro has refused US food aid for stricken
>> >> people at least twice in the past.
>>
>> >> Friday, September 11, 1998 Published at 07:15 GMT 08:15 UK
>> >> World: Americas
>> >> Cuba to reject US
>> >> aidhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/168987.stm
>>
>> > [snip]
>>
>> >>From this article:
>>
>> > "'Humanitarian aid from the United States government would be
>> > humiliating, hypocritical and unacceptable
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> what is unacceptable is that a leader of a country refuses food aid that
>> hundreds of thousands of people need for political reasons.
>>
>
> Remember, we are STILL waiting for your proof that sufficient aid was
> not obtained from other sources.
>
>
>> >> "But excessive administrative control by Cuban authorities and
>> >> related
>> >> problems with local supply channels made it difficult for the
>> >> organization to continue running other projects independently and
>> >> effectively, prompting the decision to
>> >> withdraw."http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>>
>> > The ultimate aim of any effective aid program is not to create
>> > dependency, but to have locals become self-sufficient.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> and MSF set up a great system but clearly felt that there was more to do.
>
>
> MSF did NOT set up Cuba's AIDS monitoring and treatment systems. All
> they did was to setup up an outreach program to distrubute information
> and free condoms. Quit pretending that they did any more than that.
>
>
>> >> > People generally like
>> >> > Cuba... that is, with the exception of a few like you
>>
>> >> Nice attempt at a propaganda lie and the usual "defamation" crap, but
>> >> unlike
>> >> you I care about and for Cubans.
>>
>> > You "care" so much about the Cuban people that you have spent years
>> > promoting genocidal trade sanctions against them!
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> There are no "genocidal" trade sanctions.
>> The trade sanctions are not "genocide" and you will again expose your own
>> lie by failing to post just one quote from a reputable international
>> organization referring to them as such.
>
> The facts have been documented by groups like Amnesty Interantional,
> Human Rights Watch and even the Catholic church. And while you may
> take comfort in the fact that you and your man, Dubya, have yet to be
> arrested for these crimes, under Article 2c of the UN Genocide
> Convention, your beloved embargo is indeed a form of genocide. (For
> details, see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?"
> at my website.)
>
>
>> Castro on the other hand is firmly on Genocide Watch's list:
>
>
> Did you forget about GW's recent climb-down in this regard, Mr.
> Lobbyist? A major setback for all you embargo-Nazis, wasn't it?

You are the only one with "Nazi" attitude Dan Christensen

You support a regime that:
- is on the list of genocide Watch:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/genocide.htm
- does not allow freedom of speech - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_speech.htm
- imprisons opponents (even having it's own concentration camps in the past:
the UMAP) - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/dissidents.htm
http://www.cubaverdad.net/independent_journalists_in_cuba.htm
more about the UMAP:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=UMAP&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- tortures opponents:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/torture_in_cuba.htm
- violates human rights - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/universal_declaration_of_human_rights.htm
- persecuted gays until very recently - like the Nazi regime
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22gay%22+OR+%22homo%22&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
- burns books - like the Nazi regime
- uses harsh repression against its people and has a sophisticated system of
social control - like the Nazi regime
http://www.cubaverdad.net/totalitarian_system.htm
...
and of course there are your own words that show you attitude:
Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well worth
fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures. In this
case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.....
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At this
time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to send death
squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and Colombia. Again, the
actions of the Cuban government in detaining these so-called dissidents seem
quite mild in comparison and are morally justified under the circumstances."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote

> Some time ago, I wrote to GW president, Gregory Stanton,
(snip)

That lie has been exposed over and over again:

YOUR LIE about Genocide Watch.

You falsely claimed the organization had copied (mindlessly) a number from a
book
by Rummel. Another case of "private information".
Upon verification it became clear that Rummel quoted a figure of 73,000
deaths attributable to the Castro regime.
Genocide Watch showed a figure of 75,000 which comrade Dan promptly
attributed to "sloppiness" in copying.

Your private lies can't refute the public record.
You tried this one on a couple of times and always failed.

Do you deny you got the numbers wrong in your lie and that the
"exclusive" source you falsely claimed was used by Genocide Watch (another
"private" message) actually
gave a LOWER figure than Genocide Watch.

" I have clearly shown that your claim that Mr. Rummel is the one and only
source Genocide Watch uses is false by proving that Mr. Rummel (whose
credibility you attack without proof) gives a different figures than
Genocide Watch (73,000 versus 75,0000). Genocide Watch correctly lists
Castro as a genocidal dictator because of his responsibility for the death
of over 75,000 people. "

When confronted with your lie you turned insult in to injury by claiming the
"made an error in copying", didn't you?

Dan's lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/ff0ab4c53757e8a0?dmode=source&hl=en

My exposure of his lie:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/a44230458e76b3c7?dmode=source&hl=en

Dan's pathetic claim Genocide Watch made a mistake:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/8eeb4ad61f1463d4?dmode=source&hl=en

Just keep making a fool of yourself comrade Dan.

>> The US is the largest food supplier of Cuba, a country whose people
>> depend
>> for 84% of their basic foodstuffs on imports, and is it's 6th trading
>> partner.
>>
>
> Already debunked here.
(snip)

Never debunked comrade Dan. Snipped as usual.
Confirmed by two Cuban news sources, only denied by the loony Stalinists
like you.

"Vice Minister of Economy and Planning Magalys Calvo reported that Cuba must
import 84% of its food that is distributed by ration cards in a speech at
the Provincial Assembly of Popular Power (local parliament) in Camagüey."
http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=Cuban_Radar&otherweek=1173420000

"The country imports 84 percent of the food destined to the population's
subsidized basic food basket annually"
http://www.cubanews.ain.cu/2007/feb26economiacuba.htm

"El país importa anualmente el 84% de los alimentos destinados a la canasta
básica"
http://www.granma.cubaweb.cu/2007/02/26/nacional/artic02.html

Get a life pathetic dogmatic liar.
Snipping the facts while resorting to pathetic lies and insults doesn't
change the facts.
You are so "loony" you even think you know better than the Cuban officials
what is going on.
Anyone will take their admissions over your lies.
Must be a bitch to see that your lies are debunked by the people you think
to serve, but then even Castro has debunked your lies already, hasn't he?

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-06 18:54:32 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:Vuv9i.216968$***@phobos.telenet-


< Snipped diatribe>


Dude,

I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a hypocrite as
you before. Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric or simple
bullshit, it seems to occur in any thread that's actually trying to help promote
Cuba or something good about Cuba. It's as if your sole intention is to spew
propaganda to convince people that there's something terribly wrong with one
of the smallest, most progressive countries in the world. While you say you
love your home of Cuba, you do everything within you grasp to make it appear
to be the worst place since the invention of hell... and everyone knows this is
false. Make up your mind, either you love the place or you would like to see it
destroyed, because ALL of your posts indicate the latter and make you look like
a complete fool, or a paid shill for false, deffamatory propaganda with the sole
intention of disrupting any progress in world relations (which, by the way, Cuba
happens do be doing *much* better in than the USA is lately).
PL
2007-06-06 22:37:15 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:IpD9i.93$***@trnddc06...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:Vuv9i.216968$***@phobos.telenet-
>
>
> < Snipped diatribe>
>
>
> Dude,
>
> I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a
> hypocrite as
> you before.

actually; you are the hypocrite

> Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric

Nope.
I expose the propaganda lies.
Nothing "anti Cuban " about it. Pro Cuban actually.

Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
insults.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 19:06:38 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...


> Pro Cuban actually.

Ha ! What a laugh.

> Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack of
> insults.

It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.
krp
2007-06-07 21:11:45 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>
>
>> Pro Cuban actually.

> Ha ! What a laugh.

He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.

>> Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack
>> of
>> insults.

> It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.

Well PL seems to tell the truth about Cuba mostly. As does
www.therealcuba.com. Care to prove anything there to be false?
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 22:25:21 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:lw_9i.562$***@trnddc06...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
> >
> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
> >
> >
> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>
> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>
> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.

I mean "pro" the success of the little country.

Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my real meaning.


> >> Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack
> >> of insults.

> > It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.

> Well PL seems to tell the truth about Cuba mostly. As does
> www.therealcuba.com. Care to prove anything there to be false?

He's a fatalist jerk that refuses to see a speck of light at the end of the tunnel.
There's no room for that if progress is on the agenda.
krp
2007-06-08 15:09:02 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:lB%9i.573$***@trnddc06...

>> >> Pro Cuban actually.

>> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>
>> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.

> I mean "pro" the success of the little country.

What success? Making it a tyranny?

> Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my
> real meaning.


The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.

Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.

So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
meaning the dictator.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-08 20:25:10 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:iieai.31$***@trnddc01...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:lB%9i.573$***@trnddc06...
>
> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>
> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
> >
> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>
> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>
> What success? Making it a tyranny?

Tyranny? Why must you mince and twist words. It only makes you
either appear to be dumb or a complete asshole.... neither are flattering.


> > Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change my
> > real meaning.

> The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
> GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.


Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
on internation television.

Stop putting words into my mouth, asshole.


> Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.
>
> So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
> meaning the dictator.

You're a fucking nut-case just like PL.....

Why don't you just go drop some bombs on Cuba?
krp
2007-06-08 22:33:01 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:GWiai.45$***@trnddc04...

DM vs PL

>> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>>
>> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >
>> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>>
>> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>>
>> What success? Making it a tyranny?

> Tyranny? Why must you mince and twist words. It only makes you
> either appear to be dumb or a complete asshole.... neither are
> flattering.

What? Are you claiming Cuba is NOT a tyranny? AT least I am not twisting
the truth.

>> > Twist my words all you like to be a seperatist ass, but it won't change
>> > my
>> > real meaning.

>> The simple FACT is that there is a division here, one is PRO CUBAN
>> GOVERNMENT (you) = repression of the Cuban people.

> Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just
> as
> soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
> on internation television.

That sounds VERY "Pro American."

> Stop putting words into my mouth, asshole.

You do that all by yourself.

>> Versus being for the Cuban people = LIBERTY.

>> So in that sense PL is Pro Cuban meaning the people. You are pro-Cuban
>> meaning the dictator.

> You're a fucking nut-case just like PL.....

> Why don't you just go drop some bombs on Cuba?

For starters I have family there. Secondly that would be YOUR solution.
Mine is to hope things change on their own and continue to have my affection
for the Cuban people. My wife is Cuban and she and I were married there. I
hold the Cuban PEOPLE in the highest esteem and the island as a wonderful
place but for the problems the government is having. (Corruption and
incompetence screwing things up. A failed system.)
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:23:43 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> > Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd just as
> > soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
> > on internation television.

> That sounds VERY "Pro American."

Then you're not a much of a shill as you would appear.

;-)
krp
2007-06-09 15:16:44 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:jstai.710$***@trnddc04...

>> > Look, you ignorant fucking shill... I'm pro America too... but I'd
>> > just as
>> > soon see everyone in the Executive Branch hung by the neck until dead
>> > on internation television.
>
>> That sounds VERY "Pro American."
>
> Then you're not a much of a shill as you would appear.


That was SARCASM.
PL
2007-06-09 14:47:15 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:lB%9i.573$***@trnddc06...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:lw_9i.562$***@trnddc06...
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
>> news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
>> >
>> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>> >
>> >
>> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>>
>> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>>
>> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>
> I mean "pro" the success of the little country.

That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?

> Twist my words all you like

No need to.
They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
themselves.

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 19:06:01 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:T3zai.2914$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:lB%9i.573$***@trnddc06...
> >
> > " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:lw_9i.562$***@trnddc06...
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> >> news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
> >> >
> >> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
> >>
> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
> >>
> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
> >
> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>
> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>
> > Twist my words all you like
>
> No need to.
> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
> themselves.
>
> PL

Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
krp
2007-06-09 22:46:33 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:tSCai.2330$***@trnddc04...

>> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>> >>
>> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >>
>> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>> >
>> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>>
>> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>>
>> > Twist my words all you like
>>
>> No need to.
>> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
>> themselves.
>>
>> PL
>
> Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.

For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket? It's
legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:12:08 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:d5Gai.189$***@trnddc01...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:tSCai.2330$***@trnddc04...
>
> >> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
> >> >>
> >> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
> >> >
> >> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
> >>
> >> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
> >>
> >> > Twist my words all you like
> >>
> >> No need to.
> >> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
> >> themselves.
> >>
> >> PL
> >
> > Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
>
> For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket? It's
> legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
> Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
> are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.

Proof that you have no clue....
krp
2007-06-10 13:28:29 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:YCMai.988$***@trnddc08...

>> >> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>> >> >
>> >> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>> >>
>> >> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>> >>
>> >> > Twist my words all you like
>> >>
>> >> No need to.

>> >> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
>> >> themselves.

>> > Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.

>> For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
>> It's
>> legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
>> Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
>> are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.

> Proof that you have no clue....

Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but we'd
like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.

So why wouldn't it be legal for you to move there?
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 13:30:43 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:10Tai.660$***@trnddc03...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:YCMai.988$***@trnddc08...
>
> >> >> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
> >> >>
> >> >> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
> >> >>
> >> >> > Twist my words all you like
> >> >>
> >> >> No need to.
>
> >> >> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
> >> >> themselves.
>
> >> > Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
>
> >> For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
> >> It's
> >> legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
> >> Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
> >> are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
>
> > Proof that you have no clue....
>
> Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
> they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but we'd
> like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.

If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.
krp
2007-06-10 13:34:51 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:72Tai.3054$***@trnddc02...

>> >> >> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Twist my words all you like
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No need to.
>>
>> >> >> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
>> >> >> themselves.
>>
>> >> > Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
>>
>> >> For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
>> >> It's
>> >> legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
>> >> Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if
>> >> your
>> >> are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
>>
>> > Proof that you have no clue....
>>
>> Don't worry Cuba would welcome you. You are just the mindless robot
>> they'd love! Do I know where you are from? I couldn't care less, but
>> we'd
>> like to send you to Cuba. They NEED idiots just like you.
>
> If you don't know where I'm from, you definitely are an idiot.

Some of your posts "SUGGEST" you live in the U.S., but I don't take
anything you say as literal. Like I don't buy the bullshit of the 3
Venezuelan intelligence operatives from the consulate with their bullshit.
PL
2007-06-10 16:31:25 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:YCMai.988$***@trnddc08...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:d5Gai.189$***@trnddc01...
>>
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
>> news:tSCai.2330$***@trnddc04...
>>
>> >> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>> >> >
>> >> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>> >>
>> >> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>> >>
>> >> > Twist my words all you like
>> >>
>> >> No need to.
>> >> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
>> >> themselves.
>> >>
>> >> PL
>> >
>> > Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.
>>
>> For real? Can we take up a collection to buy the one-way ticket?
>> It's
>> legal to go and STAY. Just apply to the Cuban Interests Section in
>> Washington, assuming you are in the U.S. or the nearest consulate if your
>> are not. BYE NOW! Have fun in your worker's paradise.
>
> Proof that you have no clue....

Nope.
he has a very good point. If you hate and reject the US policies on Cuba and
want to move there permanenetly no US law can stop you.
You are a lying hypocrite.

PL
PL
2007-06-10 16:30:08 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:tSCai.2330$***@trnddc04...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:T3zai.2914$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
>> news:lB%9i.573$***@trnddc06...
>> >
>> > " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
>> > news:lw_9i.562$***@trnddc06...
>> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
>> >> news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
>> >> >
>> >> > "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> Pro Cuban actually.
>> >>
>> >> > Ha ! What a laugh.
>> >>
>> >> He means PRO the Cuban people. YOU mean PRO the dictator.
>> >
>> > I mean "pro" the success of the little country.
>>
>> That would mean an end to the current abusive system, no?
>>
>> > Twist my words all you like
>>
>> No need to.
>> They are clear: you don't want Cuban's to be able to freely express
>> themselves.
>>
>> PL
>
> Dude.... if it was legal, I'd move to Cuba in a heartbeat.

Dude: once you are there US law doesn't matter.
Move. Give up your US citizenship and start living like a Cuba.
Note: it will then become "illegal" for you to leave Cuba without the
permission of the regime.
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm
You are a hypocrite. If you truly wanted to go to Cuba and STAY there, you
could and would.
Philip Agee did.
Joanne Chesimard did.
Bye.

PL
PL
2007-06-09 14:45:50 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:2HY9i.222$***@trnddc05...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message...
>
>
>> Pro Cuban actually.
>
> Ha ! What a laugh.
>
Nope.
What a fact.
Why do you feel that the human rights of Cubans should not be respected?

>> Get back to us when you have something factual to post instead of a pack
>> of
>> insults.
>
> It's all you deserve, because that's all you are doing for Cuba.

Nope.
it is all you have.

PL
krp
2007-06-07 03:31:36 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:IpD9i.93$***@trnddc06...

> I've said this before and I'll say it again.... I've never seen such a
> hypocrite as
> you before. Every time you post some of your Anti-Cuban rhetoric or
> simple
> bullshit, it seems to occur in any thread that's actually trying to help
> promote
> Cuba or something good about Cuba. It's as if your sole intention is to
> spew
> propaganda to convince people that there's something terribly wrong with
> one
> of the smallest, most progressive countries in the world.

To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
world.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 19:05:35 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:s_K9i.4064$***@trnddc01...

> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
> world.

What rock did you crawl out from under?

Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
krp
2007-06-07 21:09:59 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:3GY9i.221$***@trnddc05...

>> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
>> world.
>
> What rock did you crawl out from under?
>
> Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.

I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive." Having
buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside them,
causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
PEOPLE at that., drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
free to enlighten me..
Barry Schier
2007-06-07 21:55:08 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 7, 2:09 pm, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in messagenews:3GY9i.221$***@trnddc05...
>
> >> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
> >> world.
>
> > What rock did you crawl out from under?
>
> > Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
>
> I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to
> language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
> taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
> reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957 and
> today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."

Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
Western Hemisphere is U.S.-dominated Haiti and the dubious honor of
runner-up with "second lowest" standard of living in the Western
Hemisphere is Nicaragua (i.e., NOT Cuba), where the gains of the
Sandinista Revolution were mostly reversed in the almost 2 decades
following the ousting of the FSLN (Sandinistas) through a combination
of a U.S. proxy war and 1990 "elections." (The FSLN party was
returned to office in the most recent Nicaraguan presidential, etc.,
elections, with only most of the faces being the same as those during
the Sandinista revolution -- the FSLN had literally recanted re its
original program. The FSLN was one of the many parties in Nicaragua's
legislate to vote to make abortion even more illegal / inaccessible in
that country. Abortion is legal / accessible only in 3 countries
"south of the border": Cuba, Guyana, and another which now slips my
mind.) Third place "honors" in the race for poorest country in the
hemisphere belong to Bolivia (i.e., NOT Cuba), where a populist leader
(Evo Morales) is under increasing attack for trying to address the
problems and poverty caused by centuries of imperialism in a country
which was and still is rather rich in mineral and other resources.

Indeed, for opponents of the Cuban Revolution, Cuba's reduction of
infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
planet.

-- Barry Schier


> Having
> buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside them,
> causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
> modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to work
> in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
> as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
> PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
> internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
> REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
> I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
> free to enlighten me..
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-07 22:39:31 UTC
Permalink
"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message...

> Cuba's reduction of
> infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
> life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
> Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
> care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
> people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
> planet.

Sanity.... it's pleasing to see. ;-)
krp
2007-06-08 15:06:30 UTC
Permalink
"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

>> >> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
>> >> world.

>> > What rock did you crawl out from under?

>> > Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.

>> I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult
>> to
>> language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
>> taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
>> reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957
>> and
>> today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."

> Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
> reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
> Western Hemisphere is U.S.-dominated Haiti and the dubious honor of
> runner-up with "second lowest" standard of living in the Western
> Hemisphere is Nicaragua (i.e., NOT Cuba), where the gains of the
> Sandinista Revolution were mostly reversed in the almost 2 decades
> following the ousting of the FSLN (Sandinistas) through a combination
> of a U.S. proxy war and 1990 "elections." (The FSLN party was
> returned to office in the most recent Nicaraguan presidential, etc.,
> elections, with only most of the faces being the same as those during
> the Sandinista revolution -- the FSLN had literally recanted re its
> original program. The FSLN was one of the many parties in Nicaragua's
> legislate to vote to make abortion even more illegal / inaccessible in
> that country. Abortion is legal / accessible only in 3 countries
> "south of the border": Cuba, Guyana, and another which now slips my
> mind.) Third place "honors" in the race for poorest country in the
> hemisphere belong to Bolivia (i.e., NOT Cuba), where a populist leader
> (Evo Morales) is under increasing attack for trying to address the
> problems and poverty caused by centuries of imperialism in a country
> which was and still is rather rich in mineral and other resources.

OBFUSCATION! The FACT remains that in 1957 capitalist Cuba had the 3rd
highest standard of living in the western hemisphere, was in the top 10 in
the world. Today is the second lowest in the western hemisphere and in the
bottom 25 in the world. Now we she a propaganda shit to NICURAGUA to mask
the discussion of CUBA. Well Barry, when you can't dazzle the folks with
brilliance, baffle them with bullshit. CHAGE THE SUBJECT and hope nobody
notices the dodge.

> Indeed, for opponents of the Cuban Revolution, Cuba's reduction of
> infant mortality to the second lowest in the hemisphere and having a
> life expectancy only about a year short of that of the U.S.A. (and
> Cuba's world's highest ratio of doctors-to-population and FREE health
> care) is not "progressive" at all, for it causes there to be more
> people with awareness of the dastardly deeds of Washington on this
> planet.

The infant mortaility rate in Cuba was low when Fidel took over. It
isn't much lower today. Add to that the SERIOUS challenges to the statistics
that Cuba propagandizes even by doctors who have defected from Cuba and what
we are lift with is that most of this is all bullshit.

Of course NONE of this answers the many questions about Cuba that were
raised, it CHANEGS THE SUBJECT.. How expected.

SUCH AS:

> Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
> them,
> causing deaths is hardly "progressive." Having transportation going from
> modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to
> work
> in any other capital city? Know another country where dump trucks are used
> as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis) A country where people, FEW
> PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars. A country with a
> internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
> REVOLUTION. Tell me what YOU consider progressive?
> I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But feel
> free to enlighten me..
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-08 20:25:40 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message

> OBFUSCATION!


IDIOT
krp
2007-06-08 22:33:18 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:8Xiai.46$***@trnddc04...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
>> OBFUSCATION!
>
>
> IDIOT


Signing your name?
Unclefred
2007-06-08 20:55:18 UTC
Permalink
krp wrote:


>> Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
>> them,
>> causing deaths is hardly "progressive."

Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba. Heard of a disaster in New
Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them. Is
that because they're black?

>> Having transportation going from
>> modern to "primitive" is hardly progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to
>> work
>> in any other capital city?

Perhaps if more people did that, there'd be less global warming and fewer
hurricanes. Perhaps we'd be less out of touch with nature and maybe
happier in the long run.

>> Know another country where dump trucks are
>> used
>> as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis)

Maybe China or India, but it's not what I have come to know as Cuban
either. There cannot be a lot of this, and your data may be dated now, or
likely just plain untrue.

>> A country where people, FEW
>> PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars.

America made better cars in those days. I think. How come you can't keep
them going in the States. You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life than
getting more toys than everybody else before you die.

>> A country with a
>> internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE DEFENSE OF THE
>> REVOLUTION.

That committee used to deal with spies and infiltrators, maybe they still
do to some extent, but they are more likely to be found organizing blood
doner clinics and community events these days.

>> Tell me what YOU consider progressive?

Health care for everybody regardless of wealth or social status. Free
education through the first university degree. Healthy organic foods grown
locally and an end to hunger.

>> I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But
>> feel free to enlighten me..

"Freedom?" Do you mean the freedom to starve to death on the streets if
there's no corporation that needs you at the moment? Do you mean the
freedom to compete in the economy when you have no tools to compete with
and everybody is your economic enemy.

Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets around
the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next door,
why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
citizens?
When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace and calm
productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.
--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-08 22:49:57 UTC
Permalink
"Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
news:***@corp.supernews.com...

>>> Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
>>> them,
>>> causing deaths is hardly "progressive."

> Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.

Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.

> Heard of a disaster in New Orleans though and the government still has not
> helped many who lived there
> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
> find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them.
> Is
> that because they're black?

We all have heard of Katrina. But Cuba is suffering from a different
hurricane - Fidel. Construction is going on all over New Orleans. The city
wasn't built in a day and won't be rebuilt in a day either. But lots of the
city has either been rebuilt or is under construction to NEW standards..
Color has nothing to do with it.

>>> Having transportation going from modern to "primitive" is hardly
>>> progressive. Ever ride a horse cart to
>>> work in any other capital city?

> Perhaps if more people did that, there'd be less global warming and
> fewer
> hurricanes. Perhaps we'd be less out of touch with nature and maybe
> happier in the long run.

>>> Know another country where dump trucks are used
>>> as buses? Or bicycle rickshaws (bici-taxis)

> Maybe China or India, but it's not what I have come to know as
> Cuban
> either. There cannot be a lot of this, and your data may be dated now, or
> likely just plain untrue.

You are a comple bullshitter. Sorry Uncle Fred, I was in Cuba last year.
I took photos of the Bici-Taxis, the horse carts, the dump-truck buses, the
Cameos, and the like. China has pretty well mechanized with new things.
China is selling Cuba buses, not meny, and they aren't real good, they keep
breaking down, but what Cuba has today for city transportation is primitive.
Cuba is famous for the OLD OLD OLD OLD American cars some going back to the
20's many from the 50's. You can deny it all you want. But photos showing
what I am talking about can be seen at www.the realcuba.com and
www.cubaverdad.net.

>>> A country where people, FEW
>>> PEOPLE at that, drive 50 and 70 year old American cars.

> America made better cars in those days. I think. How come you
> can't keep
> them going in the States. You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
> advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
> States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
> about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life
> than
> getting more toys than everybody else before you die.

Sorry the U.S. is buiulding FAR better cars today than in the 50's! We
keep them going when we want to, but HERE people can afford NEW cars. Hard
to do when the average Cuban only earns the equivalent of $6.50 a month.
Thanks for your evaluation on how we should live, but I'll take life here
long before I would life in Europe etc. I might like life in Costa Rica, or
even a free Cuba.

>>> A country with a internal SPY agency on its citizens COMMITTEE FOR THE
>>> DEFENSE OF THE
>>> REVOLUTION.

> That committee used to deal with spies and infiltrators, maybe they
> still
> do to some extent, but they are more likely to be found organizing blood
> doner clinics and community events these days.

BULLSHIT! It deals with spying on each other. State Security deals with
spies, the CDR deals with tracking people who say or do anything that is
counter revolutionary. Even talking to a foreigner can be considered
subversive. My wife caught all sorts of shit for being involved with an
American, and marrying one.
(ME) You have no idea what the CDR does in tattling on neighbors to say the
wrong things.

>>> Tell me what YOU consider progressive?

> Health care for everybody regardless of wealth or social status.
> Free
> education through the first university degree. Healthy organic foods
> grown
> locally and an end to hunger.

Actually, WEENIE, education is FREE through multiple college degrees.
PhD and beyond. Health care? You have to be kidding me. Medical aparthheid
where foreigners get a decent set of medical care and the Cuban PEOPLE get
shit! Again LOOK at what the Cubans get and what foreigners who PAY in
Yankee dollars get. If you think hunger has ended in Cuba you are witless.

>>> I don't consider a near total lack of FREEDOM to be progressive. But
>>> feel free to enlighten me..

> "Freedom?" Do you mean the freedom to starve to death on the
> streets if
> there's no corporation that needs you at the moment? Do you mean the
> freedom to compete in the economy when you have no tools to compete with
> and everybody is your economic enemy.

ALmost nobody starves to death in the U.S. with public assistance. In
FCAT the poorest Americans on publ;ic aid get nearly 10 times the food per
month as the average EMPLOYED Cuban gets in a year.

> Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets
> around
> the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
> children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
> Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next
> door,
> why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
> citizens?

Yes there are. They do in Cuba too, that's why the EAST of Cuba is on
the U.N. WFP program. You're wrong.

> When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace
> and calm
> productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
> Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
> country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
> procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
> U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.

IS that why all the houses in Cuba have reinforced iron bars over the
doors and windows? Better stop reading the propaganda blogs and go see
sometime, check your bullshit against the reality shown in photos at
www.therealcuba.com
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:24:46 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:p2lai.38$***@trnddc02...

> Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings when
> I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
> www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.


I could smoke those with some pictures taken near downtown Dallas, tomorrow.
krp
2007-06-09 15:25:22 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:ittai.724$***@trnddc04...

>> Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings
>> when
>> I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
>> www.therealcuba.com. Or you can try to bullshit about it.
>
>
> I could smoke those with some pictures taken near downtown Dallas,
> tomorrow.

Who denies there is poverty in places in America? Your diversions and
excuses are unimpressive. Many of those photos show the decay along the
Malecon the most important magnet for tourists and Havana's history. Many of
the buildings you see falling down were historically and architecturally
significant, the shit you can show in Dallas or Chicago or Newark are NOT!
They're slums. Havana was known in 1957 as the MOST beautiful capital city
in the western hemisphere. Today it is a shame and even the Cuban government
NOW admits it. Your problem is that you keep making excuses for the
inexcusable.

You can only "smoke" weed guy. Not the truth.
Unclefred
2007-06-09 11:08:37 UTC
Permalink
krp wrote:

>
> "Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
> news:***@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>>> Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
>>>> them,
>>>> causing deaths is hardly "progressive."
>
>> Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.
>
> Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings
> when
> I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
> www.therealcuba.com. Ot you can try to bullshit about it.
>
You don't have a great record of honesty, and you type too quickly, or
you'd catch more of those spelling errors. Well, we can all make those.
The CIA spends a lot of time faking evidence and statistics for people like
you to quote on the internet.
The bottom line for me is, "Am I going to trust the U.S. viewpoint when
they are spreading wars of aggression to expand and maintain their
empire,... when they establish a world-wide system of torture camps and
pollute nation after nation with depleted uranium and on and on the list
goes." "OR, am I going to trust Cuba that is building a democratically
oriented socialism and exporting health care, thousands of doctors,
education and literacy." There's no bullshit there. Know the tree by the
fruit which it bears!

--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-09 15:27:59 UTC
Permalink
"Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
news:***@corp.supernews.com...

>>>>> Having buildings (homes) collapsing, often with the inhabitants inside
>>>>> them,
>>>>> causing deaths is hardly "progressive."

>>> Haven't heard of this happening in Cuba.

>> Don't get out much do you? I took pictures of some of the buildings
>> when
>> I was in Cuba. You can see other photos of the disintegration at
>> www.therealcuba.com. Or you can try to bullshit about it.

> You don't have a great record of honesty, and you type too quickly,
> or
> you'd catch more of those spelling errors. Well, we can all make those.

But when we are desperate and lack FACTS we can toss spell flames.

> The CIA spends a lot of time faking evidence and statistics for people
> like you to quote on the internet.

I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for myself.

> The bottom line for me is, "Am I going to trust the U.S. viewpoint
> when
> they are spreading wars of aggression to expand and maintain their
> empire,... when they establish a world-wide system of torture camps and
> pollute nation after nation with depleted uranium and on and on the list
> goes." "OR, am I going to trust Cuba that is building a democratically
> oriented socialism and exporting health care, thousands of doctors,
> education and literacy." There's no bullshit there. Know the tree by the
> fruit which it bears!

Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:13:50 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for myself.

Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
assumed as much.

> Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
> Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.


Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international relationships
than the US can build.
krp
2007-06-10 13:29:51 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:yEMai.993$***@trnddc08...

>> I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I have seen for
>> myself.

> Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
> assumed as much.

You have a mouse in your pocket?

>> Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
>> Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.

> Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international
> relationships than the US can build.

You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:35:57 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
> runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.


It will be China.... but you've changed the subject once again.
krp
2007-06-11 13:19:22 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:h36bi.4947$***@trnddc05...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...
>
>> You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
>> runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.

> It will be China.... but you've changed the subject once again.

You were saying how CUBA leads the world in diplomacy and respect. No
weenie it will NOT be China. China has a booming economy with his state
capitalism, and it has an impressive military, but the WORLD does NOT seem
them as protectors of liberty! GET REAL!
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 19:07:27 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:uZbbi.2011$***@trnddc08...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
> news:h36bi.4947$***@trnddc05...
> >
> > " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> >> You really think so? When the shit hits the fan, see where the world
> >> runs for help. HINT - it will NEVER be Cuba.

> > It will be China.... but you've changed the subject once again.

> You were saying how CUBA leads the world in diplomacy and respect.

No I wasn't. Cuba doesn't lead the world in much of anything but medical care.
You're just twisting my words again to promote your lies.
PL
2007-06-10 16:32:41 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:yEMai.993$***@trnddc08...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...
>
>> I don't listen to anything the CIA has to say. I ahve seen for
>> myself.
>
> Since you don't know what the CIA is doing (besides selling drugs) we
> assumed as much.
>
>> Calling Cuba "democratic" is the height of deceit. Look at how the Cuban
>> Cuban people live and wake up, it's ALL a big lie.
>
>
> Nope... it's "Cuba"... currently building better international
> relationships
> than the US can build.

But Cubans can only leave their country with the explicit permission of
their government no?
Do you deny they need exit and re-entry visas for their own country?
http://www.cubaverdad.net/freedom_of_movement.htm

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-09 08:23:44 UTC
Permalink
"Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message...

> Heard of a disaster in New
> Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived there
> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying to
> find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help them.

Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR expense.

> You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
> advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
> States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
> about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life than
> getting more toys than everybody else before you die.

If you run for office, you would probably get my vote.

;-)


> Remember there are millions of children going to bed in the streets around
> the world, homeless. Some of these are in the U.S. Not one of these
> children lives in Cuba. If Cuba can provide so much for it's people when
> Cuba has so little and suffers the embargo of a superpower right next door,
> why can't the U.S., the richest country in the world, do the same for it's
> citizens?
>
> When it comes to loving ones neighbours and living life in peace and calm
> productivity, Cuba has it all over other countries in this hemisphere.
> Washington calls Cuba a dictatorship, but Washington uses that term on any
> country it doesn't control. Cuba has elections every 5 years and a recall
> procedure that is easier than the process to impeach a president in the
> U.S. Many Americans are sorry about that right now.

Hmmmm..... a breath of fresh air in the comprehension department.
Unclefred
2007-06-09 11:15:26 UTC
Permalink
David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

>
> "Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message...
>
>> Heard of a disaster in New
>> Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived
>> there
>> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
>> to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
>> them.
>
> Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR
> expense.
>
Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of those are
black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?

>> You have a culture of disposable cars driven by
>> advertising and planned obsolescence. It's a freaking rat race in the
>> States. You should stop running on those treadmills and start thinking
>> about caring for one another for a change. There's a lot more to life
>> than getting more toys than everybody else before you die.
>
> If you run for office, you would probably get my vote.
>
> ;-)
>
No plans in that direction, but thanks. I'm working on becoming another
Michael Moore. (;-))


--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-09 15:21:02 UTC
Permalink
"Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
news:***@corp.supernews.com...
>>> Heard of a disaster in New
>>> Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived
>>> there
>>> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
>>> to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
>>> them.
>>
>> Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR
>> expense.
>>
> Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of
> those are
> black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
> Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?

Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
getting much better homes than they had.
Unclefred
2007-06-10 00:07:46 UTC
Permalink
krp wrote:

>
> "Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
> news:***@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> Heard of a disaster in New
>>>> Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived
>>>> there
>>>> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
>>>> to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
>>>> them.
>>>
>>> Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR
>>> expense.
>>>
>> Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of
>> those are
>> black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
>> Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
>
> Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
> are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
> rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
> of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
> would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
> OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
> TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
> nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
> getting much better homes than they had.

Lies. The feds have given Haliburton millions of dollars to build upscale
condominiums that the poor people displaced from New Orleans will never
have a hope of living in. Blacks have been displaced by Whites. New
Orleans will never be the same again. God bless all the victims.

--
Regards, Fred
Remove FFFf from my address to reply.
---------------------------------------------------
krp
2007-06-10 13:26:18 UTC
Permalink
"Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
news:***@corp.supernews.com...

>>>>> Heard of a disaster in New Orleans though and the government still has
>>>>> not helped many who lived
>>>>> there return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still
>>>>> trying
>>>>> to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
>>>>> them.

>>>> Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR
>>>> expense.

>>> Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of
>>> those are
>>> black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
>>> Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?

>> Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
>> are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are
>> being
>> rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of
>> home
>> of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
>> would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of
>> those
>> OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
>> TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
>> nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
>> getting much better homes than they had.

> Lies. The feds have given Haliburton millions of dollars to build
> upscale
> condominiums that the poor people displaced from New Orleans will never
> have a hope of living in. Blacks have been displaced by Whites. New
> Orleans will never be the same again. God bless all the victims.

In some areas condos are going up. However home builders from all over
the country have come to New Orleans and the surrounding area and are
building homes for the people. Better homes that meet new hurricane codes.
Some places are being rebuilt that have historical significance, but in most
cases in the 9th ward of New Orleans that houses were cracker boxes thrown
up in the 1920's that were never safe. They are being replaced with NEW
homes that ARE safe. You can slap together SHIT in a hurry. To build good
SAFE homes takes a while. Halliburton isn't building homes.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:37:31 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> Halliburton isn't building homes.

You wouldn't shit me now would you spaghetti-brain?
krp
2007-06-11 13:19:38 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:L46bi.4948$***@trnddc05...
>
> " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...
>
>> Halliburton isn't building homes.
>
> You wouldn't shit me now would you spaghetti-brain?

I WIN!
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 19:04:11 UTC
Permalink
US Attempt to Crush Cuba Failed: Landau Interviews Alarcon

Progreso Weekly - Jun 7, 2007
http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=Landau&otherweek=1181451600


Interview with Ricardo Alarcón de Quesada

“The U.S. desire to crush Cuba ... failed”

By Saul Landau

Saul Landau recently spent some time in Cuba. During his stay he was
able to interview Ricardo Alarcón de Quesada, president of the Cuban
Parliament.

Saul Landau: Cuba recently received billions [of dollars] in investment
from China and Venezuela. In addition, nickel prices have risen sharply
and foreign firms are drilling for oil off Cuba’s coast. What will the
Cuban government do with this revenue?

Raul Alarcón: Although we have been producing more and reducing our
dependency, we still must import oil and food. And prices of food are
rising with this craziness of using grains for bio-fuel. Historically,
Cuba has always required lots of buying and selling with other
countries. We sell sugar and other things, of course, but still have to
pay for services and machinery -- and for other imports. Remember, we
pay a higher price than anyone else, thanks to the U.S. embargo.

Landau: The question on the minds of most Americans – after Fidel?

Alarcón: After Fidel, after me, after you, life will continue, the
revolution will continue. Fidel is one of the few survivors of the
generation which fought in the Sierra Maestra. Others have died,
retired. Fidel has been healthy, strong, and was young at the
beginning. Throughout those years we have developed generations of
people with 20-30 years experience in government; another generation of
younger people have also accumulated some experience. In other words, I
have no doubt the revolutionary process in Cuba will continue. To those
who ask the question, I suggest they look at what’s been going on
throughout the entire region. The revolution has been reproduced
successfully around the area.

Landau: Four of Fidel’s ideological sons are now presidents in Latin
America?

Alarcón: Some actually refer to Fidel as their father, not biological
of course. Each revolutionary process, Venezuela [Chavez], Bolivia
[Morales], Ecuador [Correa] and Nicaragua [Ortega] -- and you’ll see
more -- are different. Of course, they have certain things in common.
But each has its own style, its own response to different realities.
The most important fact is that long before Fidel will pass away, they
and we can feel very proud of seeing that we succeeded. It could not
have succeeded before. Cuba being small and isolated could have been
smashed. But now the revolutionary process cannot be stopped. The U.S.
desire to crush Cuba all these years failed and with the new
revolutions it is impossible to crush revolution.

Landau: Counterrevolution? A federal judge has just released [a] man
accused of terrorism in Venezuela and Cuba. Luis Posada Carriles is
accused of sabotaging a Cuban airliner over Barbados in October 1976
[killing all 73 passengers and crew members]. Ironically, five Cubans
sent to the U.S. to spy on terrorists were arrested and imprisoned
(1998). Posada walks Miami’s streets along with other known terrorists.
What is Cuba’s response?

Alarcón: First, what happened to Posada illustrates our reason for
sending the five to monitor terrorist activities that were and are
being planned against us. We have to try to learn what those terrorists
are planning against Cuba. The most important obligation of any
government is to protect its people. We have that right and obligation.
Cuba has been the object of terrorism, mostly coming from Miami, for
decades. And the terrorists have acted with impunity. Many Americans
don’t realize that. The Posada story repeats the Orlando Bosch story.
Bosch is also at large and wanted for the bombing of the Cuban plane --
with Posada. Unfortunately, the U.S., having learned about terrorist
plans, has not acted to stop them, has not fulfilled its legal
obligation. So, Cuba’s only option was to try to discover the attack
plans before they occurred and then notify the FBI in the hopes that
they will act; they haven’t. What kind of regime do you have? A crusade
against terrorists? Or one that protects terrorists? Apply Bush’s
famous Doctrine. “He who protects the terrorist is as guilty as the
terrorist” He’s been saying this for years. Well, he’s protecting them,
as he has for years.

I don’t criticize the federal judge who freed Posada; quite the
contrary. Posada was the object of a fake legal process, was not
indicted for any serious crime, just for minor alleged immigration
violations. The government knew he was on trial in Venezuela for
destroying a plane in another country. Posada has even published his
autobiography. He gave press interviews to the NY Times and even talked
about his terrorist accomplishments.

Landau: He doesn’t suffer from modesty?

Alarcón: More like megalomania. On the airplane sabotage, the Bush
Administration has been unmasked. There are international agreements
that require the U.S. to either extradite Posada to Venezuela, where he
escaped from prison, or try him in the United States. Washington has
done neither. On punishing criminal acts, Article 7 of the Montreal
Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of
Civil Aviation says a country housing somebody wanted in another
country for violent attempts against a civilian plane has two options:
extradite him or, without any exceptions whatsoever, immediately
prosecute him. The U.S. neither warned us nor stopped the act. Two
years have elapsed and still Bush has not identified Posada as a
terrorist. He cannot be pardoned. It is one thing is to attack someone
on earth; another in mid-air. The latter damns everyone.

The U.S. Embassy in Caracas transmitted information immediately after
the October 6 event, detailing the report of Trinidadian police who
captured the 2 individuals who placed the bombs on the plane. Both
confessed that Posada and Bosch had hired them. The U.S. Embassy
alerted Washington that “we are going to be asked for cooperation and
we need instructions.” There is another report, fascinating, about
taking Bosch out of Venezuela, because he isn’t a Venezuelan citizen --
Posada is -- and they didn’t get it done. Something happened. Finally,
the Venezuelans had to detain the two because the news had spread all
over the Caribbean. I was UN Ambassador at the time and I recall
President Carlos Andres Perez -- the closest U.S. friend in the region
- -- not Hugo Chavez -- spoke at the UN. I was there. He made a candid,
dramatic appeal to the U.S. He said: “Please help us. Give us
information about this case because many in Caribbean nations are
accusing the CIA and the U.S. government of being involved in the plane
sabotage.” It was a big scandal in our area. That’s why the Posada
affair continues to provoke such reaction around the Caribbean. You
have daily editorials, articles, commentaries on every island. People
are astonished by the way this case has evolved. There are plenty of
documents on this case.

Why? Because as Posada himself told the judge, he has been working
“with them” for more than 25 years. His connection with the CIA and FBI
is so longstanding and so intense that there have to be many documents
around over a long period of time.

Landau: Isn’t there a Spanish saying, “When you educate the crows they
return to peck your eyes out.” Is this case an example?

Alarcón: If not, very close to it.

Landau: To change the subject: you’ve been watching the war in Iraq.
Four years and two months ago Bush announced “Mission Accomplished” and
a few months ago he said “we’re making a little progress” in securing
Baghdad. How do you see the Iraq War from Havana?

Alarcón: It’s a tragedy for the American people, for the U.S. as a
nation and for the entire world. You have an unjustifiable war that has
provoked huge suffering for Iraqis. No one knows how many have died!
The excuse for war has been so manipulated. The result also can’t be
ignored by Bush. Terrorism is more of a danger now than at the time of
the invasion of Iraq. By invading Iraq, the U.S. has promoted more
anger, more resentment, more hate.

Remember what Fidel Castro said after 9/11, when he expressed our
solidarity with the American people. He warned that war would make the
situation worse. What’s the solution? No one knows. And the U.S. has
become so entangled and no one knows for how long. It has done so in an
explosive area in a way that has brought violence and hatred to the
area. This is beyond a mistake. It’s a human tragedy.

Landau: We have global warming, the spread of disease and poverty. I
see optimism expressed on the billboards [patria es humanidad] in Cuba.
How do you maintain optimism? How would you turn around this looming
disaster?

Alarcón: Humanity has reached a point at which we don’t have many
options. We must change. Remember the agreements at the Earth Summit in
1992 in Rio de Janeiro, attended by President Bush Senior. Humanity
must change its patterns of production and consumption, the only way to
face what’s going on in the environment. If we don’t, it’ll be the end
of our troubles. No one will care about crises in the Middle East. Left
and right, neocons and communist alike will have no hope, no future
unless we change our ways. I’m optimistic. History has shown that
humans are the only species who have created spirit, thinking and to
imagine that animal destroying life is unthinkable. I think people are
becoming more aware. This means we must find another mode, based not on
greed and selfishness but solidarity and cooperation.

The other choice -- the end of the world.

[Saul Landau’s new book: A BUSH AND BOTOX WORLD is now available as his
his new film, WE DON’T PLAY GOLF HERE, on DVD from
***@gmauil.com]

Copyright 2007 © Progreso Weekly, Inc.

*
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:17:05 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:yzzai.137$***@trnddc01...
>
> "Unclefred" <***@webruler.FFFf.com> wrote in message
> news:***@corp.supernews.com...
> >>> Heard of a disaster in New
> >>> Orleans though and the government still has not helped many who lived
> >>> there
> >>> return home. Hundreds of thousands of homeless people are still trying
> >>> to find a place to live and the U.S. government does nothing to help
> >>> them.
> >>
> >> Are you kidding me? Some of them are still living in hotels at YOUR
> >> expense.
> >>
> > Are they? Well others are still homeless. Odd that so many of
> > those are
> > black. You don't suppose that the administration has anything against
> > Black people, do you? Ya think,... maybe?... l'il bit?
>
> Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
> are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are being
> rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of home
> of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
> would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of those
> OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
> TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
> nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
> getting much better homes than they had.


Not if their insurance didn't cover the damage (and it didn't in most cases)
or not if they aren't paying for it out of their pocket. The government, or you
and me, paid put them up, bought tens of thousands of temporary mobile
homes and gave them away, handed out debit cards, and reimbursed
millions to cities that supplied serviceas to the homeless.... but the AREN'T
building them any NEW homes for free.
krp
2007-06-10 13:32:35 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:BHMai.1002$***@trnddc08...

>> Uh guy - the people living in hotels etc ARE listed as "homeless" and
>> are paid for by the U.S. taxpayer! As we type thousands of homes are
>> being
>> rebuilt. Given the near TOTAL destruction of hundreds of thousands of
>> home
>> of really SHITTY construction rebuilding them to an acceptable code that
>> would survive another hurricane isn't done in a few minutes. Most of
>> those
>> OLD homes were slapped together cracker boxes. What is being built meets
>> TODAY'S codes to withstand another hurricane. That takes time. It has
>> nothing to do with race. As the homes are finished the BLACK folks are
>> getting much better homes than they had.

> Not if their insurance didn't cover the damage (and it didn't in most
> cases)
> or not if they aren't paying for it out of their pocket. The government,
> or you
> and me, paid put them up, bought tens of thousands of temporary mobile
> homes and gave them away, handed out debit cards, and reimbursed
> millions to cities that supplied serviceas to the homeless.... but the
> AREN'T
> building them any NEW homes for free.

Uh yes they are. Federal Funds are used to help those with no insurance.
A client of mine is one of the home builders that FEMA hired to repair homes
that can be repaired and build new ones where they can't. Which is just
about EVERY home in the 9th ward. Most built in the 1920's to NO CODE at
all. Little better than play houses. The new ones are to hurricane code.
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-11 06:38:51 UTC
Permalink
" krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message...

> The new ones are to hurricane code.


And completely UNINSURABLE....


Idiot.
krp
2007-06-11 13:21:51 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:%56bi.4949$***@trnddc05...

>> The new ones are to hurricane code.

> And completely UNINSURABLE....
>
>
> Idiot.


MAYBE... But then Louisiana didn't have a IDIOT insurance commissioner that
licenses a thousand fly by night insurance companies with NO reserves to pay
claims like happened in Florida. So they just might be insurable since they
will meet CODE for hurricanes. Something that also was NOT the case in
Florida with the CORRUPT systems in places like Dade County. Cracker boxes
won't be insurable that's a safe bet.
PL
2007-06-09 14:48:10 UTC
Permalink
"Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:***@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 2:09 pm, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> messagenews:3GY9i.221$***@trnddc05...
>>
>> >> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
>> >> world.
>>
>> > What rock did you crawl out from under?
>>
>> > Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
>>
>> I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult
>> to
>> language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
>> taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
>> reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957
>> and
>> today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
>
> Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
> reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
> Western Hemisphere
(snip)

and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking since
1960, Barry?
Which one is that?

PL
David Morgan (MAMS)
2007-06-10 06:17:55 UTC
Permalink
"PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message news:K4zai.2916$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>
> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:***@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jun 7, 2:09 pm, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
> >> messagenews:3GY9i.221$***@trnddc05...
> >>
> >> >> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
> >> >> world.
> >>
> >> > What rock did you crawl out from under?
> >>
> >> > Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
> >>
> >> I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult
> >> to
> >> language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you call
> >> taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did the
> >> reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in 1957
> >> and
> >> today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
> >
> > Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
> > reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
> > Western Hemisphere
> (snip)
>
> and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking since
> 1960, Barry?
> Which one is that?


The USA.




>
PL
2007-06-10 16:33:55 UTC
Permalink
"David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in message
news:nIMai.1005$***@trnddc08...
>
> "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote in message
> news:K4zai.2916$***@phobos.telenet-ops.be...
>>
>> "Barry Schier" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:***@g37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Jun 7, 2:09 pm, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:3GY9i.221$***@trnddc05...
>> >>
>> >> >> To call Cuba "progressive" is an insult to the intelligence of the
>> >> >> world.
>> >>
>> >> > What rock did you crawl out from under?
>> >>
>> >> > Try getting your news somewhere besides the USA.
>> >>
>> >> I have been to Cuba. And you? To call Cuba "progressive" is an
>> >> insult
>> >> to
>> >> language. And an insult to those of us who read such crap. If you
>> >> call
>> >> taking a society that had the third (or second depending on who did
>> >> the
>> >> reporting) highest standard of living in the Western Hemisphere in
>> >> 1957
>> >> and
>> >> today his the second lowest is HARDLY in my book being "progressive."
>> >
>> > Disregarding the rest of the nonsense in this post, one should be
>> > reminded that the country with the lowest standard of living in the
>> > Western Hemisphere
>> (snip)
>>
>> and the country that slided back the furthest is comparative ranking
>> since
>> 1960, Barry?
>> Which one is that?
>
>
> The USA.

Nope.
Cuba: third developed nation in the Americas in 1960 with similar levels of
health care and education as Belgium, France, ... and better than Spain,
Portugal.
Now: a third world nation where 773,000 people need WFP food aid.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-05 12:47:16 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 5, 4:15 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 3, 10:48 am, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
> >> messagenews:S9t8i.8298$***@trnddc08...
>
> >> >> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> whole
> >> >> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>
> >> >> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>
> >> >> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in the
> >> >> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they did
> >> >> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an outreach
> >> >> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took over
> >> >> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
> >> >> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here, and
> >> >> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>
> >> >> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
> >> >> problem
> >> >> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected with
> >> >> HIV
> >> >> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
> >> > And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
> >> > And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
>
> >> I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was
> >> brought
> >> on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to abandon
> >> the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive
> >> those
> >> infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
>
> > Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
> > "exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
> > lowest in the world
>
> (snip)
>
> and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
>
> "AIDS in Cuba"
> Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
> "William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
> believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
> cases to the World Health Organization. "
>

You won't find any credible expert today (we know you have been trying
for years, Mr. Lobbyist!) who has any serious doubts about Cuba health
stats.


> after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
> didn't have some headway could be made.
>
> New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
> with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
> campaign to prevent virus' spread.

Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
distribute information and free condoms. I don't mean to say this
wasn't a valuable contribution, but they did NOT, as you seem to be
suggesting, set up the extensive monitoring and treatment programs for
which Cuba is now world-renowned.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-05 15:32:42 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 4:15 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 3, 10:48 am, " krp" <***@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <***@m-a-m-s.comC/Odm> wrote in
>> >> messagenews:S9t8i.8298$***@trnddc08...
>>
>> >> >> >> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> whole
>> >> >> >> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>>
>> >> >> > [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]
>>
>> >> >> > Repeatedly debunked here. Most recently, see the discusssion in
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > thread, "Cuba Leads in Sex Education." Bottom line -- while they
>> >> >> > did
>> >> >> > make an important contribution, all MSF did was set up an
>> >> >> > outreach
>> >> >> > program and distribute free condoms. The Cuban government took
>> >> >> > over
>> >> >> > that program and went on to set up its now world renowned AIDS
>> >> >> > monitoring and treatment programs. (See original posting here,
>> >> >> > and
>> >> >> > "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website.)
>>
>> >> >> Also let us not forget that Cuba initially dealt with the AIDS
>> >> >> problem
>> >> >> by forced quarantine.Rounding up anyone "thought" to be infected
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> HIV
>> >> >> and placing them in camps. (Gay roundup.)
>> >> > And what happened when they were proven 'clean' ?
>> >> > And what happened to the spread of aids in Cuba ?
>>
>> >> I am not sure. I know that tremendous international pressure was
>> >> brought
>> >> on Cuba about the quarantine. I also know that Cuba was forced to
>> >> abandon
>> >> the quarantine. I think in part because it didn't work. It just drive
>> >> those
>> >> infected further underground and the infection rate exploded.
>>
>> > Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
>> > "exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
>> > lowest in the world
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
>>
>> "AIDS in Cuba"
>> Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
>> "William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
>> believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and
>> AIDS
>> cases to the World Health Organization. "
>>
>
> You won't find any credible expert today
(snip)

Get real comrade Dan.
Cuban "statistics" in all fiels are being questioned by experts.

Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have described how
Cuban statistics are "labyrinths".
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650
and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou artistique"
(pardon my French):
"The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the Communist
Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been comrades who
have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or unconsciously
masked, can no longer continue."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657

confirmed by international experts:
"Economists outside Cuba preface their research papers with warnings that
the statistics are untrustworthy -- there are no reliable sources."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27963

So: forget about getting to the complete and accurate truth there. It is
"cloacked" in the Castro information embargo.
Castro does NOT allow any international inspection or verification.

An example from the health sector:


Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)


"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar


Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y nutrición?
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html


"Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy -- Cuba
is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
compared with the American male's 74.5.
But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a Cuban
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be trusted."
http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...


From Promedmail :
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.


" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
See www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390

>> after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
>> didn't have some headway could be made.
>>
>> New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
>> with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public
>> health
>> campaign to prevent virus' spread.
>
> Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
> distribute information and free condoms.
(snip)

Nope.
It set up the whole system:

New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public health
campaign to prevent virus' spread.
[this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi Report]
http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar (whenever Dan
Christensen is stuck he resorts to lies, innuendo and personal insults).

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 04:28:47 UTC
Permalink
PL
2007-06-06 10:05:18 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>On Jun 5, 11:32 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame to
> bother with]

By which comrade Dan means that he snips what he can't refute

>> >> > Not since the beginning of the epidemic has the infection rate ever
>> >> > "exploded" in Cuba. In fact, Cuba's HIV infection rate is one of the
>> >> > lowest in the world
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
>>

> No.

False:
From 1989:
"AIDS in Cuba"
Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
"William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and AIDS
cases to the World Health Organization. "
>>
>> > You won't find any credible expert today
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Get real comrade Dan.
>> Cuban "statistics" in all fiels are being questioned by experts.
>>
>> Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have described
>> how
>> Cuban statistics are
>> "labyrinths".http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650

> One of your favourite di$$idents?
(snip)

an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.

>> and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou artistique"
>> (pardon my French):
>> "The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the
>> Communist
>> Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been comrades
>> who
>> have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or
>> unconsciously
>> masked, can no longer
>> continue."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657
>>

> A reference to inefficiencies in the economy. Nothing to do health stats.

False: a reference to inaccurate reporting throughout the system masking
reality. Raul confirms what experts in all areas have stated.
No part of the reporting is excluded.

>> confirmed by international experts:
>> "Economists outside Cuba preface their research papers with warnings that
>> the statistics are untrustworthy -- there are no reliable
>> sources."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27963
>

> Economists,

amongst others, no

>> So: forget about getting to the complete and accurate truth there. It is
>> "cloacked" in the Castro information embargo.
>> Castro does NOT allow any international inspection or verification.
>>
>> An example from the health sector:
>>
>> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
>> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University
>> of
>> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
>> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health
>> care.
>> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
>> official statistical data and find them not especially
>> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
>> (link broken)
>

> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
(snip)

You never did comrade Dan.
Just another pathetic attempt to claim that you have "private" data that is
better than the public record.
What a pathetic liar you are.

>> "WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for
>> the
>> Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
>> Cuban government."
>> See:www.promedmail.orgArchive Number 19970627.1390
>>

> Proves nothing.
(snip)

proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
others have widely questioned.


>> Sociedad
>> Un falso primer lugar
>>
>> Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
>> internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y
>> nutrición?http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html
>>

No reply?

>> "Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy --
>> Cuba
>> is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
>> compared with the American male's 74.5.
>> But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a
>> Cuban
>> American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
>> whether such figures can be
>> trusted."http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...
>

> Another disgruntled Cuban exile
(snip)

another guy that has first hand knowledge from Cuba you mean.
His doubts and reservations are reflected by others

>> From Promedmail :
>> The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging
>> infectious
>> diseases & toxins,
>> open to all sources.
>> ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
>> Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
>> International Society for Infectious Diseases.
>>
>> " People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
>> health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
>> Government
>> policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians
>> have
>> confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
>> influenced "
>> Seewww.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390
>

> The next sentence, which Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:

> "However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."

Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
Cuban "statistics"


>> >> after MSF stepped in bringing in even the condoms (millions) that Cuba
>> >> didn't have some headway could be made.
>>
>> >> New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined
>> >> people
>> >> with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public
>> >> health
>> >> campaign to prevent virus' spread.
>>
>> > Again, all MSF did was temporarily set up a outreach program to
>> > distribute information and free condoms.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope.
>> It set up the whole system:
>>

> A blatant lie.

Nope, a fact confirmed by press reports

>> New Day for AIDS Policy in Cuba The nation, which has quarantined people
>> with HIV, is now allowing an international group to design a public
>> health
>> campaign to prevent virus' spread.
>> [this refers to the Dutch MSF people referred to in the Pax Christi
>> Report]http://www.aegis.org/news/Lt/1997/LT970706.html
>

> Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was anything
> more than an outreach program
(snip)

You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
The facts including the statements from doctors contradict you as usual Mr.
Cyber Liar

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 18:51:26 UTC
Permalink
PL
2007-06-06 22:52:10 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>On Jun 6, 6:05 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame to
> bother with]

by which Dan Christensen menas he snipped what he can't refute

>> >> >> and from day 1 people have questioned the reporting, no?
>>
>> > No.
>>
>> False:
>> From 1989:
>> "AIDS in Cuba"
>> Lancet (08/26/89) Vol. 2, No. 8661, P. 512
>> "William Anderson of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Boston writes that he
>> believes Cuba has not been candid in its reporting of HIV infection and
>> AIDS
>> cases to the World Health Organization. "
>>

> This was 1989, at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic.
so you admit that you lied.
All Cubans statistics are "questioned" comrade Dan. than and today

>> >> Even sharp trained Cuban minds like Oscar Espinosa Chepe have
>> >> described
>> >> how
>> >> Cuban statistics are
>> >> "labyrinths".http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/26650
>> > One of your favourite di$$idents?
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
>

> You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
(snip)

Nope.
All kind of websites including the mainstream press.

From Amnsety International:

Oscar Manuel Espinosa Chepe, aged 62, is a former employee of the National
Bank of Cuba. He also worked for the Cuban government as economic counsellor
for the Cuban Embassy in Belgrade. Later, after expressing criticism of
government policies, he became a journalist reporting on economic and other
matters.

Since being detained Oscar Espinosa has suffered health problems. He is
believed to be suffering from a liver condition, a thoracic hernia,
persistent hyper-tension and weight loss. On 20 April he was transferred to
a military hospital, though his family maintains that medical treatment was
withheld.(136)

Oscar Espinosa was convicted under article 91 of the Penal Code and articles
4.1, 4.2a-b, 6.1, 6.2a-b, 7.1, 7.2, 7.3, 8.1, 8.2, 9.1, 9.2, 10 and 11 of
Law 88 to 20 years in prison.(137) He was accused, among other activities,
of "having a regular program on Radio Martí called 'Talking with Chepe,'
where he gave distorted information on the Cuban economy." (138)

Oscar Espinosa lives and was tried in Havana but has been transferred to
Guantánamo provincial prison in eastern Cuba to serve his sentence. His
health problems reportedly continue, and he was said to have again been
taken to hospital in late May.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003

Newsfeed:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Archive: (560 articles)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

>> >> and even Raul has admitted that they were vauled in a "flou
>> >> artistique"
>> >> (pardon my French):
>> >> "The Revolution cannot lie," he said in comments published by the
>> >> Communist
>> >> Party newspaper Granma. "This isn't saying that there have been
>> >> comrades
>> >> who
>> >> have lied, but the imprecision, inexact data, consciously or
>> >> unconsciously
>> >> masked, can no longer
>> >> continue."http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/27657
>>
> > A reference to inefficiencies in the economy. Nothing to do health
> > stats.
>>
>> False:

>[snip]

> Read the article, idiot! It begins:

(snip)

no mention of limiting the bad reporting to anything indeed

>> >> An example from the health sector:
>>
>> >> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
>> >> of
>> >> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
>> >> University
>> >> of
>> >> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months
>> >> in
>> >> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health
>> >> care.
>> >> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of
>> >> the
>> >> official statistical data and find them not especially
>> >> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
>> >> (link broken)
>>
> >> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> You never did comrade Dan.

> [snip]

> Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
(snip)

Nope comrade Dan.
the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous

>> >> "WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
>> >> for
>> >> the
>> >> Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from
>> >> the
>> >> Cuban government."
>> >> See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
>>
>> > Proves nothing.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
>> others have widely questioned.
>>

> It proves nothing of the sort.

Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently based
on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data" provided
by a regime.
But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.
A couple of quotes and links maybe?


>> >> Sociedad
>> >> Un falso primer lugar
>>
>> >> Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
>> >> internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y
>> >> nutrición?http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html
>
>> No reply?
>>>
[snip]

> Doesn't merit a serious reply
(snip)

Nope.
you don't dare as it confirms the data above pathetic liar
>
>> >> American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
>> >> whether such figures can be
>> >> trusted."http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...
>>
>> > Another disgruntled Cuban exile
>
>> (snip)
>
>> another guy that has first hand knowledge from Cuba you mean.
>> His doubts and reservations are reflected by others
>

>Not by any credible medical experts.

false.
by various credible medical sources

>> >> From Promedmail :
>> >> The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging
>> >> infectious
>> >> diseases & toxins,
>> >> open to all sources.
>> >> ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
>> >> Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
>> >> International Society for Infectious Diseases.
>>
>> >> " People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including
>> >> international
>> >> health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
>> >> Government
>> >> policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
>> >> physicians
>> >> have
>> >> confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
>> >> politically
>> >> influenced "
>> >> Seewww.promedmail.orgArchive Number 19970627.1390
>
>> > The next sentence, which Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:
>> > "However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
>>
>> Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
>> reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
>> I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
>> But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
>> Cuban "statistics"

>[snip]

> The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
> medical expert himself,

Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember

> doesn't seem to give much credence to such

False.
he once said he woouldn't trust a Cuban doctor as far as he could throw him
as far as reporting goes, no?


>> > Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was
>> > anything
>> > more than an outreach program
>>
>> (snip)
>>
> > You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.

[snip]

> So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
> under this "public health campaign" of yours.
(sniip)

In Cuba millions can.
you can't back up your false claims. That has been clearly shown Mr. Cyber
Liar

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-07 22:05:49 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 6, 6:52 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]


> >> an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
>
> > You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
>
> (snip)
>
> Nope.
> All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
>
[snip]

Please cite even one of his "news reports," other than politically
motivated opinion pieces, that have been published in the mainstream
press. Or one from any of your other di$$ident pals for that matter.
We know you can't.


> >> >> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit
> >> >> of
> >> >> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
> >> >> University
> >> >> of
> >> >> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months
> >> >> in
> >> >> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health
> >> >> care.
> >> >> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of
> >> >> the
> >> >> official statistical data and find them not especially
> >> >> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
> >> >> (link broken)
>
> > >> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> You never did comrade Dan.
> > [snip]
> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>
> (snip)
>
> Nope comrade Dan.
> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous

The "public record" in this case has vanished. Nothing in the archives
at the original site. There is no trace of his posting anywhere, other
than in your lying postings in news groups. Again, write to him, if
you dare, MISS Lobbyist. Likewise, write to Mr. Stanton at GW --
again, if you dare. We know you haven't got the balls for it, MISS
Lobbyist!


> >> >> "WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
> >> >> for
> >> >> the
> >> >> Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from
> >> >> the
> >> >> Cuban government."
> >> >> See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber19970627.1390
>
> >> > Proves nothing.
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
> >> others have widely questioned.
>
> > It proves nothing of the sort.
>
> Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently based
> on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data" provided
> by a regime.
> But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.

[snip]

Please show us where any credible medical expert seriously questions
Cuban stats. You have tried here yet again, and as always have failed
miserably.

Hundreds of experts have gone to Cuba to see the health care system
for themselves. And the overwhelming consensus is very positive
indeed. (See "Achievements of the Revolution" at my website for a few
examples.)


> >> >> ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
> >> >> Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
> >> >> International Society for Infectious Diseases.
>
> >> >> " People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including
> >> >> international
> >> >> health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
> >> >> Government
> >> >> policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
> >> >> physicians
> >> >> have
> >> >> confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
> >> >> politically
> >> >> influenced "
> >> >> Seewww.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
>
> >> > The next sentence, which Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:
> >> > "However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
>
> >> Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors in
> >> reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
> >> I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
> >> But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts over
> >> Cuban "statistics"
> >[snip]
> > The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
> > medical expert himself,
>
> Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
> the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember
>

[snip]

I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
lies about him which I posted at my website (to debunk them). Just
like your lies about Dr. Thiede above.

As for the author of the above posting, he later conceded, "Given the
low reported case:fatality rate in the recent experience, it seems as
though the Cubans are still using these techniques [learned in the
1981 outbreak] and that they are effective." Clearly, he had some
confidence in Cuban methods and reporting.

Once again, we see what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!


> >> > Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was
> >> > anything
> >> > more than an outreach program
>
> >> (snip)
>
> > > You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
>
> [snip]
>
> > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
> > under this
>
> (sniip)
>
> In Cuba millions can.
> you can't back up your false claims.

Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
Dan Christensen
2007-06-08 03:05:12 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
[snip]

> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being treated
> > > under this
>
> > (sniip)
>
> > In Cuba millions can.
> > you can't back up your false claims.
>
> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>

>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:

While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
financial resources.

Raising awareness of STD/AIDS

STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.

In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
Health.
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html

Nothing about establishing the monitoring and treatment programs for
which Cuba was later to become world-renowned, demonstrating once
again what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 15:00:55 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
>> > > treated
>> > > under this
>>
>> > (sniip)
>>
>> > In Cuba millions can.
>> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
>> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>
>>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
> While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
> sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
> system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
> financial resources.
>
> Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
>
> STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
> young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
> campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
>
> In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
> through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
> called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
> painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
> distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
> awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
> The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
> Health.
> http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C-11D4-B2010060084A6370&component=toolkit.article&method=full_html


Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
This only refers to the last part of the program.
they were there since 1996.

Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
increasingly involved
in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.
http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echo
http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 11:00 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
> >> > > treated
> >> > > under this
>
> >> > (sniip)
>
> >> > In Cuba millions can.
> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>
> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>
> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
> > While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
> > sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
> > system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
> > financial resources.
>
> > Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
>
> > STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
> > young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
> > campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
>
> > In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
> > through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
> > called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
> > painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
> > distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
> > awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
> > The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
> > Health.
> >http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C...
>
> Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
> This only refers to the last part of the program.
> they were there since 1996.
>
> Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
> 1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
> increasingly involved
> in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
> consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
> prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in search
> for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say, 'because
> there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources, among a
> population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although the
> regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
> countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
> developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
> sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
> available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
> the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the project
> thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban bureaucracy
> and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In two
> years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure to
> work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we share
> in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of Justitia
> et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes, about
> each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
> hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
> something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from one
> who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor neighborhoods.http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echohttp://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html
>

Thanks for confirming I was right -- not one AIDS patient treated. And
thanks for comfirming what a truly desperate liar you are, Mr.
Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA
PL
2007-06-09 16:44:55 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 11:00 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
>> > [snip]
>>
>> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
>> >> > > treated
>> >> > > under this
>>
>> >> > (sniip)
>>
>> >> > In Cuba millions can.
>> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
>> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>>
>> > While on the island, MSF focused on STD/AIDS and on water and
>> > sanitation, areas where it was able to bring added value to a health
>> > system that already had well-trained medical professionals but lacked
>> > financial resources.
>>
>> > Raising awareness of STD/AIDS
>>
>> > STD/AIDS prevention programs in Havana and Santiago de Cuba targeted
>> > young people and vulnerable groups. MSF carried out awareness
>> > campaigns, trained local health workers and encouraged condom use.
>>
>> > In early 2000, MSF teams and community health workers travelled
>> > through Havana and the provincial capitals for an outreach campaign
>> > called "Carrito por la vida" (Trailer for Life). Riding in a brightly
>> > painted Dutch caravan, teams worked enthusiastically day and night
>> > distributing information and condoms to high risk people, raising
>> > awareness of HIV/AIDS and STDs and promoting universal precautions.
>> > The project was carried out in conjunction with the Ministry of
>> > Health.
>> >http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?objectid=6589C209-DC2C...
>>
>> Just part of the story he comrade Dan.
>> This only refers to the last part of the program.
>> they were there since 1996.
>>
>> Two Dutch women have led an AIDS-prevention project in Havana since
>> 1996. It distributes six million condoms a year. The project is
>> increasingly involved
>> in the distribution of information. The program provides regular
>> consultation hours and brochures. It is geared mainly to male or female
>> prostitutes, who chiefly cater to the tourists who frequent Cuba in
>> search
>> for sex. 'What is more, Cuba is extremely promiscuous', people say,
>> 'because
>> there is no other type of diversion'. According to official sources,
>> among a
>> population of 11 million, Cuba has 1.800 HIV-positive patients. Although
>> the
>> regime's control on the population has been much stricter than in other
>> countries, it has decreased. This is due to the fact that medical
>> developments are going downhill. There is a dramatic increase in
>> sexually-transmitted diseases, although no public official figures are
>> available. The fear that such diseases may get out of control is probably
>> the reason why the Ministry of Health staff is unwilling to let the
>> project
>> thrive. Every once in a while, PWF loses hope due to the Cuban
>> bureaucracy
>> and inflexibility, although now it is also beginning to see progress. In
>> two
>> years, the project is to be taken over by Cuban personnel. 'That is sure
>> to
>> work', say the doctor and her assistant, during a too-costly lunch we
>> share
>> in a too costly hotel. Later on, we inform both PWF and the nuns of
>> Justitia
>> et Pax, who work in the poor neighborhoods and know the prostitutes,
>> about
>> each other's work. Both were ignorant of each other's activities and
>> hesitant to show interest in learning about it. 'If they also could do
>> something about the cause of prostitution', was the first reaction, from
>> one
>> who knows all the ins and outs of Havana's poor
>> neighborhoods.http://www.antenna.nl/paxchristi/cubaenpo.html#echohttp://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/pax3.html
>>
>
> Thanks for confirming I was right

actually you are not.

From 1998:

# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba

An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm

A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm

From 2001:

MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and among
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=04560986-3730-42FD-A50C8C6FC73EC291&method=full_html

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
PL
2007-06-09 15:12:38 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
> [snip]
>
>> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
>> > > treated
>> > > under this
>>
>> > (sniip)
>>
>> > In Cuba millions can.
>> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
>> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>
>>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful

From 1998:

# CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba

An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm

A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm

From 2001:

MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and among
http://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&objectid=04560986-3730-42FD-A50C8C6FC73EC291&method=full_html

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:06:12 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 11:12 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
> >> > > treated
> >> > > under this
>
> >> > (sniip)
>
> >> > In Cuba millions can.
> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>
> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>
> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>
> From 1998:
>
> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>
> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>
> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in Havana,
> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by a
> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of sixteen
> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people pay
> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>
> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana, Cuba
> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls have
> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the service
> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information line
> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and awareness
> campaign that MSF is launching in Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>
> From 2001:
>
> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil, Cuba,
> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China, Khazakhstan,
> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>

Again, thanks for confirming I was right -- not one AIDS patient was
treated by the MSF in Cuba. And thanks for confirming what a truly
desperate liar you are, Mr. Lobbyist!

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 16:46:11 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 11:12 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 6:05 pm, Dan Christensen <***@netcom.ca> wrote:
>> > [snip]
>>
>> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
>> >> > > treated
>> >> > > under this
>>
>> >> > (sniip)
>>
>> >> > In Cuba millions can.
>> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
>> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>>
>> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>>
>> From 1998:
>>
>> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
>> evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>>
>> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>>
>> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in
>> Havana,
>> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
>> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
>> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by
>> a
>> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of
>> sixteen
>> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people
>> pay
>> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
>> disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>>
>> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana,
>> Cuba
>> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
>> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
>> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
>> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
>> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls
>> have
>> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the
>> service
>> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information
>> line
>> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and
>> awareness
>> campaign that MSF is launching in
>> Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>>
>> From 2001:
>>
>> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
>> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
>> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
>> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil,
>> Cuba,
>> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
>> Khazakhstan,
>> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
>> amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>>
>
> Again, thanks for confirming
(snip)

The texts whows you were lying:
"CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator"
http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm

The WHOLE programme comrade Dan

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-10 02:59:10 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 12:46 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
bother with]

> >> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
> >> >> > > treated
> >> >> > > under this
>
> >> >> > (sniip)
>
> >> >> > In Cuba millions can.
> >> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>
> >> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
> >> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
> >> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>
> >> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
> >> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>
> >> From 1998:
>
> >> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
> >> evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>
> >> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>
> >> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in
> >> Havana,
> >> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
> >> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
> >> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS by
> >> a
> >> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of
> >> sixteen
> >> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people
> >> pay
> >> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
> >> disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>
> >> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana,
> >> Cuba
> >> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per day.
> >> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
> >> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
> >> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
> >> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls
> >> have
> >> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the
> >> service
> >> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information
> >> line
> >> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and
> >> awareness
> >> campaign that MSF is launching in
> >> Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>
> >> From 2001:
>
> >> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of integrated
> >> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
> >> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi, Mozambique,
> >> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil,
> >> Cuba,
> >> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
> >> Khazakhstan,
> >> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
> >> amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>
> > Again, thanks for confirming
>
> (snip)
>
> The texts whows you were lying:
> "CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>

Ummmm... just what do you think this proves, Mr. Lobbyist??? This is
the only mention of Cuba, and it is nothing but a title. Not one
mention of even a single AIDS patients being treated by MSF in Cuba.

I guess it just confirms what a truly desperate liar you are.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-10 16:34:53 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 12:46 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
> bother with]
>
>> >> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient
>> >> >> > > being
>> >> >> > > treated
>> >> >> > > under this
>>
>> >> >> > (sniip)
>>
>> >> >> > In Cuba millions can.
>> >> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> >> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
>> >> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> >> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>> >> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>>
>> >> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>>
>> >> From 1998:
>>
>> >> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
>> >> evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>>
>> >> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>>
>> >> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in
>> >> Havana,
>> >> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
>> >> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
>> >> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS
>> >> by
>> >> a
>> >> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of
>> >> sixteen
>> >> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people
>> >> pay
>> >> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
>> >> disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>>
>> >> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana,
>> >> Cuba
>> >> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per
>> >> day.
>> >> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
>> >> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
>> >> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
>> >> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls
>> >> have
>> >> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the
>> >> service
>> >> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information
>> >> line
>> >> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and
>> >> awareness
>> >> campaign that MSF is launching in
>> >> Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>>
>> >> From 2001:
>>
>> >> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of
>> >> integrated
>> >> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
>> >> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi,
>> >> Mozambique,
>> >> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil,
>> >> Cuba,
>> >> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
>> >> Khazakhstan,
>> >> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
>> >> amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>>
>> > Again, thanks for confirming
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> The texts whows you were lying:
>> "CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
>> evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>>
>
> Ummmm... just what do you think this proves,
(snip

What it says: they overhauled the system as confirmed by other press
reports.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-11 04:45:06 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 10, 12:34 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> news:***@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jun 9, 12:46 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> > [snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
> > bother with]
>
> >> >> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient
> >> >> >> > > being
> >> >> >> > > treated
> >> >> >> > > under this
>
> >> >> >> > (sniip)
>
> >> >> >> > In Cuba millions can.
> >> >> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>
> >> >> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one documented
> >> >> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
> >> >> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>
> >> >> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>
> >> >> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>
> >> >> From 1998:
>
> >> >> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
> >> >> evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>
> >> >> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>
> >> >> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in
> >> >> Havana,
> >> >> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now fully
> >> >> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information, and
> >> >> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about AIDS
> >> >> by
> >> >> a
> >> >> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display of
> >> >> sixteen
> >> >> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which people
> >> >> pay
> >> >> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
> >> >> disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>
> >> >> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in Havana,
> >> >> Cuba
> >> >> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per
> >> >> day.
> >> >> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well as
> >> >> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two MSF
> >> >> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone queries.
> >> >> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and calls
> >> >> have
> >> >> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the
> >> >> service
> >> >> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS information
> >> >> line
> >> >> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and
> >> >> awareness
> >> >> campaign that MSF is launching in
> >> >> Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>
> >> >> From 2001:
>
> >> >> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of
> >> >> integrated
> >> >> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific AIDS
> >> >> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi,
> >> >> Mozambique,
> >> >> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia, Brazil,
> >> >> Cuba,
> >> >> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
> >> >> Khazakhstan,
> >> >> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
> >> >> amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>
> >> > Again, thanks for confirming
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> The texts whows you were lying:
> >> "CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
> >> evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>
> > Ummmm... just what do you think this proves,
>
> (snip
>
> What it says: they overhauled the system as confirmed by other press
> reports.
>

It says nothing of the sort, Mr. Lobbyist. No mention of even one AIDS
patient being treated by the MSF in Cuba.

Do get back to us when you have the facts to support your outrageous
claims here. Until then, do not expect a reply from me on this matter.
As it stands, you have once again been exposed for the truly desperate
liar that you are, Mr. Lobbyist.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-11 13:23:00 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 10, 12:34 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> "Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>>
>> news:***@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 9, 12:46 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>>
>> > [snipping portions of PL's already debunked here, or too lame to
>> > bother with]
>>
>> >> >> >> > > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient
>> >> >> >> > > being
>> >> >> >> > > treated
>> >> >> >> > > under this
>>
>> >> >> >> > (sniip)
>>
>> >> >> >> > In Cuba millions can.
>> >> >> >> > you can't back up your false claims.
>>
>> >> >> >> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist. How about just one
>> >> >> >> documented
>> >> >> >> case of even a single AIDS patient being treated in this "public
>> >> >> >> health campaign" of yours. It is obvious now that you can't.
>>
>> >> >> >>From the MSF website, on the Cuban program:
>>
>> >> >> New AIDS Information Line in Cuba Successful
>>
>> >> >> From 1998:
>>
>> >> >> # CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
>> >> >> evaluatorhttp://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>>
>> >> >> AIDS Information Center Opens in Cuba
>>
>> >> >> An MSF information and coordination center was officially opened in
>> >> >> Havana,
>> >> >> Cuba, on Tuesday, December 1, World AIDS Day. The center is now
>> >> >> fully
>> >> >> operational and is providing counseling, health-care information,
>> >> >> and
>> >> >> expanded telephone hotline hours. A photographic exhibition about
>> >> >> AIDS
>> >> >> by
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> Cuban photographer opened during the celebration as did a display
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> sixteen
>> >> >> Cuban panels from the international AIDS quilt project in which
>> >> >> people
>> >> >> pay
>> >> >> tribute to loved ones who have been lost to the
>> >> >> disease.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/12-14-1998.cfm
>>
>> >> >> A call-in AIDS "hotline" started by MSF became operational in
>> >> >> Havana,
>> >> >> Cuba
>> >> >> on September 1 and is already receiving approximately 45 calls per
>> >> >> day.
>> >> >> Callers have sought information about AIDS and other STDs as well
>> >> >> as
>> >> >> undesired intimacies at work and sexual violence in the home. Two
>> >> >> MSF
>> >> >> psychologists have trained 15 volunteers to answer telephone
>> >> >> queries.
>> >> >> Various Cuban media outlets have publicized the phone number and
>> >> >> calls
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> come in from all over the country. Plans are underway to extend the
>> >> >> service
>> >> >> to the evening hours to accommodate more callers. The AIDS
>> >> >> information
>> >> >> line
>> >> >> is part of a larger AIDS information and coordination center and
>> >> >> awareness
>> >> >> campaign that MSF is launching in
>> >> >> Cuba.http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/before1999/09-21-1998.cfm
>>
>> >> >> From 2001:
>>
>> >> >> MSF projects in more than 80 countries address HIV as part of
>> >> >> integrated
>> >> >> health care for populations in danger. Moreover, MSF has specific
>> >> >> AIDS
>> >> >> control projects in Rwanda, Ethiopia, Kenya, Uganda, Malawi,
>> >> >> Mozambique,
>> >> >> Democratic Republic of Congo (former Zaire), Armenia, Russia,
>> >> >> Brazil,
>> >> >> Cuba,
>> >> >> Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Peru, Burma, Cambodia, China,
>> >> >> Khazakhstan,
>> >> >> Kyrghizia, the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, and
>> >> >> amonghttp://www.msf.org/msfinternational/invoke.cfm?component=article&obje...
>>
>> >> > Again, thanks for confirming
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> The texts whows you were lying:
>> >> "CUBA: evaluation of the AIDS programme by external
>> >> evaluator"http://www.mande.co.uk/docs/msfh.htm
>>
>> > Ummmm... just what do you think this proves,
>>
>> (snip
>>
>> What it says: they overhauled the system as confirmed by other press
>> reports.
>>
>
> It says nothing of the sort,
(snip)

Both their press statement and press reports confirm that fact Mr. Serial
liar.
The Dutch site confirmed they reviewed the while program.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
PL
2007-06-09 14:57:21 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 6, 6:52 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
> to bother with]
>
>
>> >> an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
>>
>> > You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope.
>> All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
>>
> [snip]
>
> Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
(snip)

Just have a look:
http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
Here you have about 560 by or about him:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

>> >> >> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics
>> >> >> Unit
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
>> >> >> University
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
>> >> >> months
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
>> >> >> health
>> >> >> care.
>> >> >> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> official statistical data and find them not especially
>> >> >> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
>> >> >> (link broken)
>>
>> > >> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> You never did comrade Dan.
>> > [snip]
>> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope comrade Dan.
>> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
>> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
>
> The "public record" in this case has vanished.
(snip)

but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.
The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
comrade Dan.
Your private lies have appeared nowhere and never but in your propaganda

>> >> >> "WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance
>> >> >> from
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> Cuban government."
>> >> >> See:www.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber19970627.1390
>>
>> >> > Proves nothing.
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> proves that there is no confirmation and that all data is from sources
>> >> others have widely questioned.
>>
>> > It proves nothing of the sort.
>>
>> Yep it does if an intenational organization can report independently
>> based
>> on varied reporting it means it is reduced to repeating the "data"
>> provided
>> by a regime.
>> But please show us where any independent verification was ever allowed.
>
> [snip]
>
> Please show us where any credible medical expert seriously questions
> Cuban stats.
(snip)

Have done so over and over again in this thread.
Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics Unit of
the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the University of
Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three months in
Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban health care.
Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold of the
official statistical data and find them not especially trustworthy.
http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
(link broken)


"WHO and the PanAmerican Health Organization (WHO's Regional Office for the
Western Hemisphere) cannot report to the world without clearance from the
Cuban government."
See: www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


Sociedad
Un falso primer lugar


Sin la existencia de fuentes independientes, ¿cómo los organismos
internacionales pueden certificar los 'logros' cubanos en salud y nutrición?
http://cubadata.blogspot.com/2006/06/un-falso-primer-lugar.html


"Official statistics indicate that by one measure -- life expectancy -- Cuba
is doing quite well: The average Cuban male lives 75.2 years,
compared with the American male's 74.5.
But Juan A. Asensio, a trauma surgeon at the University of Miami and a Cuban
American who has studied the island's medical system, questions first
whether such figures can be trusted."
http://www.mre.gov.br/portugues/noticiario/internacional/selecao_deta...


From Promedmail :
The global electronic reporting system for outbreaks of emerging infectious
diseases & toxins,
open to all sources.
ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases.


" People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including international
health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
Government
policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban physicians have
confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is politically
influenced "
See www.promedmail.org Archive Number 19970627.1390


>> >> >> ProMED-mail, the Program for Monitoring
>> >> >> Emerging Diseases, is a program of the
>> >> >> International Society for Infectious Diseases.
>>
>> >> >> " People emigrating from Cuba or visiting Cuba, including
>> >> >> international
>> >> >> health representatives, have reported that it is in line with Cuban
>> >> >> Government
>> >> >> policy to report mild cases of dengue as "influenza". Cuban
>> >> >> physicians
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> confirmed allegations that some disease reporting in Cuba is
>> >> >> politically
>> >> >> influenced "
>> >> >> Seewww.promedmail.orgArchiveNumber 19970627.1390
>>
>> >> > The next sentence, which Mr. Lobbyist snipped for obvious reasons:
>> >> > "However, lack of reporting may simply be an understaffing issue."
>>
>> >> Get real comrade Dan. The statement above is clear and even if "errors
>> >> in
>> >> reporting" are at fault it shows that the statistics are NOT reliable.
>> >> I take the words of those that have been in the system anytime.
>> >> But thanks for admitting that medical experts express grave doubts
>> >> over
>> >> Cuban "statistics"
>> >[snip]
>> > The author of this posting, a moderator of ProMed Mail and supposedly a
>> > medical expert himself,
>>
>> Not supposedly, a very respected expert.
>> the one that had you remowe a lying page from your website, remember
>>
>
> [snip]
>
> I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
> lies about him
(snip)

Nope.
he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
internet site.
he had a page from YOUR website removed comrade Dan.
Those are the facts.

>> >> > Please show us your proof that this "public health campaign" was
>> >> > anything
>> >> > more than an outreach program
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> > > You claim it was only that. Prove that it was only that.
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> > So, you cannot find a single report of even one AIDS patient being
>> > treated
>> > under this
>>
>> (sniip)
>>
>> In Cuba millions can.
>> you can't back up your false claims.
>
> Never mind "millions," Mr. Lobbyist.
(snip)

Those are the people that count comrade Dan.
Not your propaganda

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar (whenever Dan
Christensen is stuck he resorts to lies, innuendo and personal insults).

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-09 16:36:02 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 10:57 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

> >> >> an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely published.
>
> >> > You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> Nope.
> >> All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
>
> > [snip]
>
> > Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
>
> (snip)
>
> Just have a look:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
> Here you have about 560 by or about him:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=S...

Please select even one of these 560 entries that is news report (not
an opinion piece) written by this di$$ident of yours published in the
mainstream media. We know you can't.


> >> >> >> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health Economics
> >> >> >> Unit
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
> >> >> >> University
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
> >> >> >> months
> >> >> >> in
> >> >> >> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
> >> >> >> health
> >> >> >> care.
> >> >> >> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get hold
> >> >> >> of
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> official statistical data and find them not especially
> >> >> >> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
> >> >> >> (link broken)
>
> >> > >> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
>
> >> >> (snip)
>
> >> >> You never did comrade Dan.
> >> > [snip]
> >> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> Nope comrade Dan.
> >> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on for
> >> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
>
> > The "public record" in this case has vanished.
>
> (snip)
>
> but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over again.

Enough of your girlish games! If you had the balls, MISS Lobbyist, you
would confirm by writing to him, as I did, that you took this quote
out of context. As a health economist, he was talking about financial
data. He actually thinks the mortality stats (basic health indicators
like infant mortality, etc.) are "quite rigorous" (previous posting).


> The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change anything
> comrade Dan.

[snip]

Messages for this board are archived. And the quote in question cannot
be found in the archives. This suggests that Dr. Thiede may have had
this misquote removed.


> > I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
> > lies about him
>
> (snip)
>
> Nope.
> he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on your
> internet site.

[snip]

It was YOUR lies he objected to, Mr. Lobbyist -- just like your lies
about Dr. Thiede (above). Everything I posted about him, he himself
has posted online, the only exceptions being your lies about him
believing Cuban health stats to be falsified. In my zeal to expose
your lies, I inadvertently gave you a platform for them at my website
-- a mistake in hindsight. You really are a pathetic little fish when
it comes right down to it.

Dan
Visit by CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-09 16:53:23 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 10:57 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
> to bother with]
>
>> >> >> an economist and respected analyst on Cuba that is widely
>> >> >> published.
>>
>> >> > You mean at your various Miami mafia websites?
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> Nope.
>> >> All kind of websites including the mainstream press.
>>
>> > [snip]
>>
>> > Please cite even one of his "news reports,"
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Just have a look:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/chepe.php
>> Here you have about 560 by or about
>> him:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=Chepe&submit=S...
>
> Please select even one of these 560 entries that is news report (not
> an opinion piece) written by this di$$ident of yours published in the
> mainstream media. We know you can't.
>
>
>> >> >> >> Michael Thiede is Senior Research Officer in the Health
>> >> >> >> Economics
>> >> >> >> Unit
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the Department of Public Health and Primary Health Care at the
>> >> >> >> University
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> Cape Town, South Africa. He writes: " Last year I spent three
>> >> >> >> months
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> Cuba. I am still motivated to put together some papers on Cuban
>> >> >> >> health
>> >> >> >> care.
>> >> >> >> Unfortunately, however, during my stay I was only able to get
>> >> >> >> hold
>> >> >> >> of
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> official statistical data and find them not especially
>> >> >> >> trustworthy.http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/cuba_healthcarestatistics62202.html
>> >> >> >> (link broken)
>>
>> >> > >> I wrote to Dr. Thiede to confirm this quote.
>>
>> >> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> >> You never did comrade Dan.
>> >> > [snip]
>> >> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> Nope comrade Dan.
>> >> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on
>> >> for
>> >> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
>>
>> > The "public record" in this case has vanished.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over
>> again.
>
> Enough of your girlish games!
(snip)

Do you deny you yourself saw it there "Miss Cuber Liar"?
I can of course post proof.

>> The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change
>> anything
>> comrade Dan.
>
> [snip]
>
> Messages for this board are archived.
(snip)

Nope.
not that one.
Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........

>> > I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
>> > lies about him
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope.
>> he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on
>> your
>> internet site.
>
> [snip]
>
> It was YOUR lies he objected
(snip)

Nope.
He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
he said:

- on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted to
keep up)

"Please remove the following very offensive web site
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html

- on why:

"The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
unsupportable.

Please remove this web site as soon as you can. It does much harm and no
good
at all."

YOUR LIES on YOUR WEBSITE comrade dan and despite your protestations it was
removed. You had to as your IP provider warned you that your whole site
would be removed and your account closed if you did not remove the
slanderous and abusive materials.
You put it up, we got it down.
You are still pissed off about it, good.
It merely shows what a serial liar you are.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-10 03:52:42 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 9, 12:53 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

> >> >> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>
> >> >> (snip)
>
> >> >> Nope comrade Dan.
> >> >> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on
> >> >> for
> >> >> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
>
> >> > The "public record" in this case has vanished.
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over
> >> again.
>
> > Enough of your girlish games!
>
> (snip)
>
> Do you deny you yourself saw it there?

The point is it was a quote taken out of context, and no longer
appears anywhere at the website, not even in their archives.


> I can of course post proof.
>

Be my guest.


> >> The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change
> >> anything
> >> comrade Dan.
>
> > [snip]
>
> > Messages for this board are archived.
>
> (snip)
>
> Nope.
> not that one.
> Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
>
[snip]

I will try. Give us your proof of exactly when it was posted. And
while you are at, if you can find those long-lost balls of yours, MISS
Lobbyist, then write to Dr. Thiede on this matter yourself, as I did.


> >> > I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
> >> > lies about him
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> Nope.
> >> he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and on
> >> your
> >> internet site.
>
> > [snip]
>
> > It was YOUR lies he objected
>
> (snip)
>
> Nope.
> He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
> he said:
>
> - on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted to
> keep up)
>
> "Please remove the following very offensive web sitehttp://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html
>
> - on why:
>
> "The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
> unsupportable.
>
[snip]

Here he is referring to your lies about him, which I regrettably
posted at my website if only to debunk to them -- lies to the effect
that he believed Cuban health stats were falsified, just like your
lies about Dr. Thiede above.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-10 16:39:42 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@n4g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 9, 12:53 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
> to bother with]
>
>> >> >> > Poor pathetic Little Miss Lobbyist...
>>
>> >> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> >> Nope comrade Dan.
>> >> >> the public record stands, your private lies (exposed in the case on
>> >> >> for
>> >> >> example Genocide Watch) are ridiculous
>>
>> >> > The "public record" in this case has vanished.
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> but you have admitted that that was the public record over and over
>> >> again.
>>
>> > Enough of your girlish games!
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Do you deny you yourself saw it there?
>
> The point is it was a quote taken out of context, and no longer
> appears anywhere at the website, not even in their archives.
>
>
>> I can of course post proof.
>>
>
> Be my guest.

You never claimed the message wasn't posted:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/search?q=thiede+author%3ADan+Christensen&start=30&sa=N&scoring=d&hl=en&

>> >> The fact that a message on a bullitin board expires doesn't change
>> >> anything
>> >> comrade Dan.
>>
>> > [snip]
>>
>> > Messages for this board are archived.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope.
>> not that one.
>> Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
>>
> [snip]
>
> I will try.
(snip)

Get real.
You can't

>> >> > I think you are referring to the medical expert who objected to your
>> >> > lies about him
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> Nope.
>> >> he objected to the lies and falsification YOU put out in inusent and
>> >> on
>> >> your
>> >> internet site.
>>
>> > [snip]
>>
>> > It was YOUR lies he objected
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Nope.
>> He acted TOGETHER with me to have your lies and falsifications removed.
>> he said:
>>
>> - on the object that needed to be romved (the page you desperately wanted
>> to
>> keep up)
>>
>> "Please remove the following very offensive web
>> sitehttp://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html>http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html
>>
>> - on why:
>>
>> "The extreme distortions made on this site are both offensive and legally
>> unsupportable.
>>
> [snip]
>
> Here he is referring to your lies about him,
(snip)

Nope.
About the distortions YOU posted on YOUR website in this - now removed -
page:
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/PL.html

The page you desperately tried to keep up.
The contents of which you posted to usenet when forced to remove the page.
The messages you claimed you would have removed and never did.

You are a hypocrite serial liar Dan Christensen

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-11 04:39:26 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 10, 12:39 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]


> >> > Messages for this board are archived.
>
> >> (snip)
>
> >> Nope.
> >> not that one.
> >> Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
>
> > [snip]
>
> > I will try.
>
> (snip)
>
> Get real.
> You can't
>
[snip]

Not suprisingly, you cannot tell us when the item in question was
posted to the Stanford website.

Do get back to us when you have ALL the facts, Mr. Lobbyist. Until
then, do not expect a reply from me on this matter.

Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-11 13:21:30 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 10, 12:39 pm, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
> to bother with]
>
>
>> >> > Messages for this board are archived.
>>
>> >> (snip)
>>
>> >> Nope.
>> >> not that one.
>> >> Post some post from the same period comrade Dan........
>>
>> > [snip]
>>
>> > I will try.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> Get real.
>> You can't
>>
> [snip]
>
> Not suprisingly, you cannot tell us when the item in question was
> posted to the Stanford website.

False.
As you yourself have confirmed on various occasions: it was there in 2002.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/search?q=thiede+author%3ADan+Christensen&start=130&sa=N&scoring=d&hl=en&filter=0&

But thanks for showing your despair by now trying to deny the existence of a
statement you frequently replied to and about the author of which you felt
it necessary to set up a web of lies. It shows to all what you are truly all
about Mr. Serial Liar.

Other places where the message was quoted by third parties:
http://www.kubaforen.de/t226175f11718482-Kindersterblichkeit-in-Cuba.html

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
Dan Christensen
2007-06-06 04:31:50 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 5, 11:32 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:

[snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
to bother with]

> Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie:
>
> Quote me

[snip]

You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
some years ago -- you actually boasting about your lobbying exploits,
the schmoozing, the golf games, etc. Too bad! It is now a matter of
public record. In addition to your own words here, we have your
prodigious production stats here and at other forums.

For all the quotes and details, see the thread "Top Official: US Wants
Cuba 'Liberation'" where our Mr. Lobbyist here obligingly runs through
almost his entire repertoire of desperate lies, distortions and
evasions, including those here, each debunked by yours truly at:

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2

Really, isn't it time for you to come clean on this matter, Mr.
Lobbyist? Your continued denials only serve to undermine what little
credibility you have left. Until you can do so, and if you are simply
going to keep repeating your tired old lies and evasions, do not
expect a reply from me on this matter.

> Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
> quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
> report
> that:

> "Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
> denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
> its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
> sanctions"http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

[snip]

That was 4 years ago. As AI reiterated earlier this year:

"Amnesty International has called for the US embargo against Cuba to
be lifted, as it is highly detrimental to Cubans' enjoyment of a range
of economic, social and cultural rights, such as the right to food,
health and sanitation - particularly affecting the weakest and most
vulnerable members of the population. According to UNICEF, the
availability of medicines and basic medical materials has decreased in
Cuba as a consequence of the US embargo against the island." (AI
website)

Also see featured article, "Is the US embargo a form of genocide?" at
my website.

Mr. Lobbyist would actually have you believe that, despite their
obvious condemnation of his beloved embargo here, AI would actually
support these cruel sanctions of his for as long as it takes for
certain of his "preconditions" to be met! Yes, he really is that
desperate, that stupid and that cruel! Whatever it takes, right, Mr.
Lobbyist?


Dan
Visit my CUBA: Issues & Answers website at
http://www.netcom.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html
PL
2007-06-06 09:38:25 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 5, 11:32 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>
> [snipping portions of PL's posting already debunked here, or too lame
> to bother with]
>
>> Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie:
>>
>> Quote me
>
> [snip]
>
> You would like us to forget all about your little indiscretion here
snip)

There is no "indescretion" comrade Dan Christensen and your constant
inablility to post direct quotes with links shows that you know you are
lying Mr. Cyber-Liar
and Cyber-Stalker.

> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/browse_frm/thread/1ae3dea90e537555/da566b8afe2111a2?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#da566b8afe2111a2

Nothing there comrade Dan. No links and quotes. Just you repeating your
lies.

Again the standard reply to your "lobbyist" lie Mr. Cyber-liar:

Quote me comrade Dan. You claimed you can and you never did.
We both know you can't.

Try something like this:

Quote:
"In my opinion the advances made by the Revolution are morally well
worth fighting for and justify the use of these extraordinary measures.
In this case, the ends do indeed justify the means.
.......
These measures, however, would NOT be morally justified in propping less
worthy regimes in the region -- the USA and its vassal states in the
Caribbean and Latin America come immediately to mind."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=tirG3.176162%245r2.278940%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

"It is wrong to think that a particular end justifies EVERY means. At
this time, for example, it would be wrong of the Cuban government to
send death squads after their opponents as happens in Mexico and
Colombia. Again, the actions of the Cuban government in detaining these
so-called dissidents seem quite mild in comparison and are morally
justified under the circumstances."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=txMG3.176443%245r2.284921%40tor-nn1.netcom.ca

Unquote.

You lie about me as you lied about Wayne Smith, Amnesty
International,
Genocide Watch, ..........

Still waiting for the "Geneva" proof comrade Dan.
That "episode" clearly exposes your lies.

As I said comrade Dan.
Every time you post that lie about me I post the truth about you.

Remember the lie about "lobbying in Geneva" while I actually was on
vacation in Cuba (as the source IP address of my posts in SCC at that
time prove).
This was your false claim:
"Taking a little break from arm-twisting in Geneva, Mr. Lobbyist?"
Link:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/b6375f9783e47aee?q=g:thl174670614d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Your inability to substantiate any of it is the best proof of your lies.

Nothing more than another example of your lies and misquotes like the
ones below:

YOUR LIE about Wayne Smith
"It is clear from Smith's article here (and his website, CIP Online)
that he does, in fact, support an immediate and unconditional lifting
of your beloved embargo."
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.cuba/msg/3f1fe3a55c12d7d7?dmode=source&hl=en

HIS own words:

'We should reduce tensions, not aggravate it, making it clear to the Cuban
government that we do not have hostile intentions toward them,'' Smith said
during a 40-minute speech at a conference titled Cuba and the United States:
Relations in Permanent Conflict, Causes, Effects and Solutions.
''I did not say lift the embargo without conditions,'' he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/12157593.htm
You can enter after a free registration.

Permanent copy in the Cubaverdad archive:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/message/16823

YOUR LIE about Amnesty International.
Another example of the same lie: putting words in people's mouth.

Do you deny that in your posts you put some snippets from the report
quoted below and on your site you also falsely claim about the same
report
that:

"Today, for the first time, Amnesty International has explicitly
denounced the US embargo on Cuba in humanitarian terms, and made clear
its support for the immediate and unconditional lifting of these cruel
sanctions"
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ215.html

Link to the "report": (the one you didn't give until I shamed you in to it)
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

They aren't calling for an "immediate and unconditional" end to the
trade sanctions in that report, are they?
Do you deny you snipped the words "immediate and unconditional" from
these sentences in the report (THE ONLY PLACES WHERE THEY ARE USED):

"in 1.
"On the basis of the available information, therefore, Amnesty
International considers the 75 dissidents to be prisoners of
conscience(2) and calls for their immediate and unconditional
release."

In 8.1
" to immediately and unconditionally release the 15 prisoners
previously named by Amnesty International as prisoners of conscience.


" to immediately and unconditionally release anyone else who is
detained or imprisoned solely for having peacefully exercised their
rights to freedom of expression, association and assembly."

and added to those snippets your own words to create this sentence on
your lying website:

" Amnesty International has explicitly denounced the US embargo on Cuba
in humanitarian terms, and made clear its support for the immediate and
unconditional lifting of these cruel sanctions"

that sentence:
1. isn't in the report
2. isn't supported by the tenure and the conclusions of the report

You snipped two three words used by Amnesty to condemn the Castro
regime and abused them in a sentence to imply support for your cause: a
BLATANT LIE.

What the report actually recommends about the "embargo" is:

"Amnesty International calls on the United States government
- to immediately suspend decisions on any measures that could toughen
the embargo.
- to review its foreign and economic policy towards Cuba, with an aim
towards ending this damaging practice.
- to place enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns in developing new policy towards Cuba."

Clearly no immediate and unconditional end is demanded as Dan claims.
The request is for not stiffening the sanctions and to review a policy
that places "enjoyment of the full range of human rights at the
forefront of its concerns".

See:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR250172003?open&of=ENG-CUB

Lies and more lies from comrade Dan Christensen, the resident Canadian
Stalinist propagandist of SCC.

PL
PL
2007-06-05 08:11:35 UTC
Permalink
"Dan Christensen" <***@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:***@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> correction
>
> On Jun 1, 4:31 am, "PL" <***@pandora.be> wrote:
>> Recent news articles:http://www.cubaverdad.net/themefeeds/aids.php
>>
>> Over 350 articles on aids in
>> Cuba:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaVerdad/msearch?query=%22aids%22+OR+...
>>
>> How about the story of MSF (Doctors withour Borders) that set up the
>> whole
>> Cuban aids system and then got kicked out?
>>
> [snip PL's same old lies and distortions]

By which Canadian Stalinist Dan Christensen means that he snipped what he
couldn't refute.

> Repeatedly debunked here.
(snip)

Never "debunked" comrade Dan.
Just snipped as you do here.

PL
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